Trade gone bad.....ideas? - Page 4

FeliceTaylor · #46 06-23-2018, 01:35 PM

As an attorney, I rather agree that you might want to introduce the L word - this is a enormous chunk of change by most standards, and I find the promises in all those communications rather disturbing - though I trust your gut feeling that "Bob" was on the up and up, his wife and family might not share his strength of character and so far they seem to have little regard for your concerns. Maybe this is due solely to their distraction in light of Bob's failing health, but still, they must know you would be in a panic by now. I don't think you should threaten legal action, but rather, have a lawyer friend call them on your behalf or write an email on your behalf more or less demanding the guitar be shipped in the next week and use wording such as "to avoid the need for legal recourse." That will likely light a fire under them to make shipping the guitar a priority.

62burst · #47 06-23-2018, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeliceTaylor

As an attorney, I rather agree that you might want to introduce the L word - this is a enormous chunk of change by most standards, and I find the promises in all those communications rather disturbing - though I trust your gut feeling that "Bob" was on the up and up, his wife and family might not share his strength of character and so far they seem to have little regard for your concerns. Maybe this is due solely to their distraction in light of Bob's failing health, but still, they must know you would be in a panic by now. I don't think you should threaten legal action, but rather, have a lawyer friend call them on your behalf or write an email on your behalf more or less demanding the guitar be shipped in the next week and use wording such as "to avoid the need for legal recourse." That will likely light a fire under them to make shipping the guitar a priority.

This worked for me. A well-known luthier in the Carolinas who had repaired my guitar, accepted payment for repairs, and would not return the guitar. For 4 or 5 months. I had a lawyer local to him (he had just relocated to the town) contact him, and the guitar was soon on it's way back to me. Incredulously, he only wanted $75 for his services.

Good luck to you.

Don Lampson · #48 06-23-2018, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okeem22

I think it was doable considering I knew both parties ( or had dealt with them at least), and all 3 guitars were in very fine condition. No real diffence than a straight trade with someone really. Someones getting your guitar unseen, and you are receiving same.

It wasn't a "doable" trade, or you wouldn't be in this jam you're dogged into. It sounds like you were desperate to make the deal happen, so you took a chance? Who is this "respected forum member", and why haven't they chimed in on what they did as their part of the deal, since they're so "respected"?

You don't know where the guitar, or, or even who, it's new owners are? Have you googled them to verify their existence? It's silly to consider flying across the county to meet face to face, with "Bob's" family if they won't communicate with you, or even hiring a Florida, or, DC lawyer. All that's doing is throwing good money after bad....

Wish I had a more positive prediction of this outcome for you....

Don

SecondCity · #49 06-23-2018, 02:22 PM

I think hiring a lawyer out there is a great idea. He’s more likely to get the wife’s attention. Also, they can deliver the guitar to the lawyer who can then ship it to you. Probably the cleanest option. Costly though.

Denny B · #50 06-23-2018, 03:05 PM

I've got no advice for the OP that hasn't already been put out there...

But I can say with certainty that I've learned a valuable lesson here...

chippygreen · #51 06-23-2018, 03:24 PM

Try other means first, but this should be your last and final resort if you feel you're being played.

Find a local lawyer in DC and suggest that your lawyer write a letter - it shouldn't cost more than $250 - citing rule 8.4 of the District of Columbia professional ethics rules, and tell them that if you do not have the guitar in your hands in 5 business days you will report them to police for theft and the bar for misconduct and request that the bar commence a disciplinary investigation. (You may want them to deliver it to your attorney - it would be a disaster if they sent it to you and it was smashed on delivery).

That should get their attention. Even if it's not enough to get them disbarred, they won't want to have to deal with it - just like even honest taxpayers don't want an IRS audit. However, a quick look at decisions suggests a felony conviction for theft is basis for disbarment (In re McBride, 602 A.2d 626 (DC 1992) (en banc)). Generally above $500 gets into felony territory.

https://www.dcbar.org/bar-resources/...s/rule8-04.cfm

Just don't expect to be friends after!

okeem22 · #52 06-23-2018, 03:37 PM

Thank you everone. Overwhelming response and certainly cant even think of responding to them all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

It wasn't a "doable" trade, or you wouldn't be in this jam you're dogged into. It sounds like you were desperate to make the deal happen, so you took a chance? Who is this "respected forum member", and why haven't they chimed in on what they did as their part of the deal, since they're so "respected"?

Yes I am in a jam.....theres always a first perhaps. I hear of deals gone bad, just with two vs. three parties. Still doable in my book, just didnt happen that way.

Not feeling desperate by any means. Money not involved, and didnt feel "stuck" with a near mint Sexauer FT-14 that I had gotten a nice deal on.

Not up to me to divulge the other person, he has a life and probably isnt even aware of this thread, though I did email him of my post as he has wanted updates on what has happened and was due for one. I can say he wanted my guitar and got it, and as soon as possible sent his guitar to Bob who got it. That is it. Did his part 100%. Can also say concensus likely would be that he is one of the more respected members of our fine group. Not a stranger to any regular on here.

F512 · #53 06-23-2018, 04:08 PM

Sounds like you aren’t willing to fully pursue this. In that case, just write it off and move on. In my business I’ve learned that there are people that will put you off in hopes you’ll just give up. It amazing what a simple letter from your attorney can accomplish.

islandguitar · #54 06-23-2018, 04:14 PM

Wishing you success with this situation....lots of good advice. I'm sure this may have taken place, but one small thought as you try to deal directly with the family or via a lawyer would be to make sure to present copies of all Bob's writings and commitments in this deal. If the family sees what their family member has committed via email or letter, it might move the needle a bit. Perhaps this is all baked into your communication already, but then again maybe not.
However, this does indeed seem to be moving toward the legal arena at this moment.
Best of luck and let us know how things evolve.

Tahitijack · #55 06-23-2018, 04:19 PM

I feel sorry for the OP, but to me his situation seemed fishing from the jump. I would not believe a word of what Bob has emailed or texted. No verification of anything. Nice story but....really?

There should be a section of this forum titled: Gear sales gone bad. It would probably overwhelm the system with internet sales/purchases, long distance deals, craigslist and on and on.

I still hold myself to a personal standard of dealing with gear I can inspect and test when buying and selling from a real person and of course cash only...in a safe and secure place away from my home.

pszy22 · #56 06-23-2018, 05:17 PM

I know nothing about the law and have a sidebar question. All the talk of prosecution or suing is directed toward who, Bob? They going to drag this guy off his death bed to go to small claims court? If not Bob, would it be his estate? If it is the estate, don't you have to wait until the estate is settled and get in line behind all the other people Bob owes?

It would seem to me that the wife could claim complete ignorance - I don't know anything about the trade, I don't know anything about guitars, I don't know what it is, I don't know where it might be, when I sent the email I thought he was talking about that pretty blue one that Bob always played at our bonfires, I have no idea who this guy is that is suing my family at this troublesome time for my family....

okeem22 · #57 06-23-2018, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pszy22

I know nothing about the law and have a sidebar question. All the talk of prosecution or suing is directed toward who, Bob? They going to drag this guy off his death bed to go to small claims court? If not Bob, would it be his estate? If it is the estate, don't you have to wait until the estate is settled and get in line behind all the other people Bob owes?

It would seem to me that the wife could claim complete ignorance - I don't know anything about the trade, I don't know anything about guitars, I don't know what it is, I don't know where it might be, I have no idea who this guy is that is suing my family at this troublesome time for my family....

My last resort is to lawyer up and go that route. NO idea of legalities, which can vary state to state. I do have numerous emails verifying the agreed trade, satisfaction with guitar received, intent to ship, his wifes awareness, knowledge that he owes a guitar, and intent to ship it.

Zissou Intern · #58 06-23-2018, 07:01 PM

The guitar that the OP actually owns is now in the hands of the respected forum member. His guitar is with Bob, and presumably Bob's guitar is with Bob or Bob's family. Perhaps the respected forum member should give the OP back his guitar. Then the respected forum member can get the guitar he owns back from Bob or Bob's family.

I don't feel that any of the three parties' parts in this is done until all three parties have their guitars. I also suspect that if it gets bad with Bob or Bob's family, one of the two guitars they have in their possession actually belongs to the respected forum member. Thus he would have an obvious legal claim to the return of the guitar and an easier time proving ownership.

v32 finish · #59 06-23-2018, 07:05 PM

This is a nightmare. Makes me really question sending an expensive guitar on a trade..

If I had a home address where my guitar shipped, the first thing I'd be doing is finding out if it's a valid address and if those people live there. My guess is, that where you shipped the guitar, they don't live there, which would kinda point towards the worst.

If they do live there and it was a legit home address, I would be sorely tempted to just show up there, but I fully recognize that may not be prudent. I doubt that it would be that easy, but you never know. Banging on their door might be just what they need. It also may not be safe.

What a mess. Sorry for thinking out loud, but.. despite what others have said about civil and law enforcement officials not having anything to do, I disagree, nd while it might be true, I think it would be worth AT LEAST a phone call to your local PD/sherrifs office/detective.. also the PD in their location (DC).

Crappy as it is, I would have a big manilla folder at this point and start dotting my I's and crossing my t's... talk to a lawyer, here and there, talk to police, here and there, and formulate a plan A, B, and C along with timetables.

Keep us posted.. definitely agree with whoever said they should add a "deals gone bad" section or thread.. this has scared me a wee bit! Good luck brother
.scott

jomaynor · #60 06-23-2018, 07:10 PM

The reason a 3 way trade has far more risk than a simple yours-for-mine has to do with coordinating a simultaneous ship date.

A 3-way trade typically goes: "A sends to B, then B sends to C, then C sends to A," which is usually spread out over a series of days. Whereas a 2 way lends itself to the straightforward: "on x date, A sends to B & B sends to A," where both guitars are in transit at the same time.

Hence (assuming that neither of the parties is a crook), a 2 way is less risky.