Can't figure out this rhythm

[dodgemaster]

So this is my first post here, I hope I am able to articulate my problem correctly and that you fine folks can help me out. I've been trying to learn the song little wing the srv version and have come up to a troubling part. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4kqthu_NPM. This is just some guy covering on YouTube but he plays it very well I think. The part I'm having trouble with is at 3:35-3:38 he's playing 1/16 notes in 4/4 time (I think) but he's putting weird accents on it (every 3 notes?) almost making me think he's playing triplets. Please help! I've tried playing it a number of ways but just can't lock into his rhythm and I don't want to practice this wrong.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by dodgemaster

So this is my first post here, I hope I am able to articulate my problem correctly and that you fine folks can help me out. I've been trying to learn the song little wing the srv version and have come up to a troubling part. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4kqthu_NPM. This is just some guy covering on YouTube but he plays it very well I think. The part I'm having trouble with is at 3:35-3:38 he's playing 1/16 notes in 4/4 time (I think) but he's putting weird accents on it (every 3 notes?) almost making me think he's playing triplets. Please help! I've tried playing it a number of ways but just can't lock into his rhythm and I don't want to practice this wrong.

Hi DM

First of all, Hello and Welcome to the forum.

First of all it's not 4/4 because it's in triplet sub-divisions (eighth-notes-grouped-in-triplets if you are writing them out) rather than duplet rhythm.

So it's either a moderately quick 6/8 or 12/8 depending on whether you want to feel/interpret it in 2 or 4 (at about 120 bpm)

The solo is increasing the speed of the triplets with his strumming while maintaining the overall feeling of triplet rhythms. If you use a tool which slows down the playing while maintaining the key, you should be able to dig out whether he's playing the strumming in triplets as well.

I think it's just duplet strumming but I've only listened to it a few times.

I'd let him play in my band (he's quite good).

[Silly Moustache]

This was a challenge I had to check out because I was a drummer - back in those days!

I had to listen to Jimi play it, as I hadn't heard SRV's cover.

Mitch Mitchell (whom I helped along the way before he got into the Experience) doesn't play a standard 6/8 - but it is.

So yes I would have played a 6/8 time throughout.

The backing tape doesn't make it that obvious though.

[Dalegreen]

Hi Dodgemaster
Yes he is in 4/4 time and at that point of the song (3:35) he is playing 2 pairs of 16th note triplets per beat and he is just accenting the start of each triplet group. So you are hearing the accented rhythmic feel on first and second half of each beat.
Brings back memories of a classic rock guitar class I did with Berklee. Had to break down and analize many solo's including Jimi Hendrix / Jeff Beck / Jimmy Page / Eric Clapton. Was one of the most fun classes I took.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dalegreen

Hi Dodgemaster
Yes he is in 4/4 time and at that point of the song (3:35) he is playing 2 pairs of 16th note triplets per beat and he is just accenting the start of each triplet group. So you are hearing the accented rhythmic feel on first and second half of each beat.
Brings back memories of a classic rock guitar class I did with Berklee. Had to break down and analize many solo's including Jimi Hendrix / Jeff Beck / Jimmy Page / Eric Clapton. Was one of the most fun classes I took.

Hi Dg…

How do you conclude 4/4 (duplet subdivision) instead of 12/8 (with 4 groups of triplet subdivisions)?

[stanron]

Each beat is a triplet. Whether you group these in twos, 6/8, or fours, 12/8, is up to you. I'd go for 12/8, i.e. four triplet beats to the bar. When it comes to the fast strumming bit my poor old ears can't tell if he strums down and up once or twice for each third of the beat. A good case for a slowdowner if I had to decide.

[Dalegreen]

Just listen to the backing track and don't pay attention to the guitar player, straight 4/4 time.
Hendrix was know for constantly adding quick triplet runs in his solo's making the rhythme section really work to keep the grove tight.
And it was a heck of a job transcribing some of his solo's. He was notorius for adding so many "ghost" notes to his riffs. Timing could become very deceptive to the listener.
Grouping 16th note triplets is really a very articulate and (incredible playing ability) to move thru a straight 4/4 meter

[stanron]

I quite often notate music in 12/8 as 4/4, but always with clear instruction to play 'with a triplet swing feel' or something similar. For an original poster who is asking about timing just calling it 4/4 is not helpful. The triplet content is essential.

[Dalegreen]

Yes he is playing 16th note triplets as I mentioned in my first reply.
He is playing 3 triplets on the first half of the beat and then 3 triplets on the second half of the beat, for several beats, all over a basic 4/4 meter.
In written notation you would see 2 groups of 16th triplets per beat, a very common practice over a 4/4 meter. It really gives the rhythm section and the soloist two distinct characteristics and they blend well together.

[dodgemaster]

Thankx for the awesome feedback guys I think your all pretty much right

Originally Posted by stanron

Each beat is a triplet. Whether you group these in twos, 6/8, or fours, 12/8, is up to you. I'd go for 12/8, i.e. four triplet beats to the bar. When it comes to the fast strumming bit my poor old ears can't tell if he strums down and up once or twice for each third of the beat. A good case for a slowdowner if I had to decide.

this is exactly what I did! slowed her RIGHT down with some software I found and was able to finally pick apart the rhythm. So the way I interpret it now is 2 triples to the beat so 6/8 time for me I guess

Originally Posted by Dalegreen

Just listen to the backing track and don't pay attention to the guitar player, straight 4/4 time.
Hendrix was know for constantly adding quick triplet runs in his solo's making the rhythme section really work to keep the grove tight.

Also agree with, maybe that's what was tripping me out at first I think I was trying to keep the groove of 4/4 time from the over all song so switching to this "new time" was difficult...I'll keep working away at it. Improving everyday

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by dodgemaster

this is exactly what I did! slowed her RIGHT down with some software I found and was able to finally pick apart the rhythm. So the way I interpret it now is 2 triples to the beat so 6/8 time for me I guess

Given the 4 beats in the bar, make that 12/8.
That's if you count the BPM as 118, with the drums in half-time (snare on beat 3).
And because he's playing downstrokes on every triplet, he's actually getting 6 notes per beat, although at that speed they tend to blur into a mush.

The triplet feel is a lot clearer in the following passage (3:38-42).

Then from 3:48-53 it's more random - basically he's just playing as fast as possible, sometimes getting 6 notes per beat sometimes only 5 or 4, and smearing some of them. All that matters in a passage like this is (a) you're using the right scale (!) and (b) you end up where you want. That might be a targeted chord tone on a beat, that you can hold or bend up to; or it could just be a sudden cut-off - but you remain conscious of the beat, even while playing around it.
It's the rhythmic equivalent of the jazz player's melodic "outside" phrasing - playing chromatic notes outside the current harmony: it works as long as you come back inside convincingly, otherwise it just sounds "wrong".
So as long as you're aware of the beat, you can play tightly within it (16ths, triplets, whatever) or loosely around it.

This video is certainly a great demo of SRV's solo, but don't use it to learn it note-for-note yourself, at least not for performance purposes. Not even SRV would have done that! (He'd have played a different solo every time - this just happens to be the one on record. He'd probably have repeated parts of it, so it might have sounded broadly similar - but note-for-note? No way.)
Learn it to steal phrasing ideas, to understand how what he does fits the chords, to get inside his head and see how he was thinking.

[dodgemaster]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Given the 4 beats in the bar, make that 12/8.
That's if you count the BPM as 118, with the drums in half-time (snare on beat 3).

A few of you have said 12/8 matches the timing better...I'll have to give it a better listen again

Originally Posted by JonPR

And because he's playing downstrokes on every triplet, he's actually getting 6 notes per beat, although at that speed they tend to blur into a mush.

I don't see what you mean here wouldn't that mean for those bends that every other one you'd be hitting the bend with an upstroke...is that right?

Originally Posted by JonPR

This video is certainly a great demo of SRV's solo, but don't use it to learn it note-for-note yourself, at least not for performance purposes. Not even SRV would have done that! (He'd have played a different solo every time - this just happens to be the one on record. He'd probably have repeated parts of it, so it might have sounded broadly similar - but note-for-note? No way.)
Learn it to steal phrasing ideas, to understand how what he does fits the chords, to get inside his head and see how he was thinking.

dont worry though I do want to be able to play the song one day I'm not intending to play it note for note I'm more concerned with getting his style down the best I can and use it in my own playing...his bends, vibrato and phrasing are what I want to learn from him, not trying to be him. I'm actually trying to turn this into an acoustic cover the harmonics sound amazing and I'll be changing some of his positions up to incorporate more open strings...sounds beautiful to my ears though I do end up ripping up my fingers a bit when practicing lol

[dodgemaster]

Originally Posted by dodgemaster

I don't see what you mean here wouldn't that mean for those bends that every other one you'd be hitting the bend with an upstroke...is that right?

Never mind this part lol guess I can't count