For those who think the bridgepin thing is nonsense...

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

Sometimes we go from "it doesn't bother me" to "it shouldn't bother anyone," which is a step too far for me.

On the other hand, sometimes we go "the problems of one should be the problems of all..."

[Teleman52]

Originally Posted by Steadfastly

Generally, the mfrs. know what sounds best in their guitars and they are almost always right

Youre wayy overestimating how much thought guitar manufacturers put into little things like bridge pins

[beninma]

Like I said I could hear it, if it bothers the OP than why not change it?

The B string is the string on my guitar that sounds a little off sometimes.

But the thing is.. to me the difference between bridge pins is no bigger than the difference between picks, and you can change picks a lot easier.

And nothing affects my perception of the sound more than the room I'm in.. sometimes I could just turn around 180 degrees and the sound seems ridiculously different.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Teleman52

Youre wayy overestimating how much thought guitar manufacturers put into little things like bridge pins

The smaller builders - Collings, H&D, SCGC, Froggy - almost certainly do give that kind of thought to the pins they use, but I'm absolutely certain that, for the big builders - CFM, Gibson, Taylor, yadda yadda - the main thought involves $$, very little else.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[Muddslide]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

...which effectively makes it snake oil for most people.

90% of the "chasing the tone dragon" nonsense is snake oil.

Unless you are playing just for your own pleasure with your serious ears on (and there's nothing wrong with that!) or you are playing purely acoustically (no mics, amps) in the most sonically magical concert venues for an audience comprised solely of gearhead guitar geeks like us, nobody really cares and very few can tell the difference, even if you tried to point it out to them.

There are just too many variables. Yes, a layperson is likely to hear some differences between a spruce-over-rosewood dreadnought vs an all-hog parlor guitar (or between any two guitars, even if identical) or prefer the sound of one to the other...

But if you were to give both guitars string changes, that layperson may no longer be able to discern the difference, or their preference may change. Who knows. So many variables.

I've actually seen heated arguments about how the composition of pickguard screws on old pre-CBS Fender electric guitars have an impact on the tone of the instrument.

Probably in some nanoscale sense it does. The extra one billionth of a milligram of glue accidentally used in a luthier's 58th guitar that wasn't used in their 57th probably makes a teensy difference too. But who cares?

Most of these things--the supposed effect of this or that on a guitar's sound (bridge pins, tuning key mass, saddle material, etc), while they may create a negligible sonic difference--those differences are by far, far and away lost and superseded by simple things like changing picks or strings, or hand placement or technique.

The most important thing is that the PLAYER is inspired. What inspires is different for everyone and there's no right or wrong to it. If someone has a blast and makes good music with some stock, off the shelf guitar, that's great.

If it inspires another player to have bridge pins made of leprechaun gold harvested and crafted in the forge of Hades under a blue moon, again that's great!

But aside from the player and a handful of folks like us, nobody else can tell much difference, nor do they care.

[BT55]

When you read AGF topics you find people strongly recommending guitars, strings, capos, picks etc. Everyone has their preferences, likes, dislikes and tonal preferences. If someone has a bridge pin preference good for them! It’s their guitar, it works for them and that’s what matters. [emoji16]

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

The smaller builders - Collings, H&D, SCGC, Froggy - almost certainly do give that kind of thought to the pins they use, but I'm absolutely certain that, for the big builders - CFM, Gibson, Taylor, yadda yadda - the main thought involves $$, very little else....

If in fact these small shop operations give more thought to bridge pins than the large scale manufacturers, I can guarantee that it’s still at a far lower pitch of intensity than the discussions on bridge pins that we see on this and other online guitar forums.

Bridge pins are an exceedingly minor part of the signal chain, if in fact they actually contribute to it at all.

You know, I’ve been around custom guitar builders and fine acoustic guitars since the mid-1970’s. I’ve met or spoken with over the phone many of the most respected builders and instrument dealers. People who build guitars by hand can generally talk your ears off about all sorts of minutia when it comes to what affects the tone.

Yet in all those years, I can count on one hand the times that these builders have discussed the tonal impact of bridge pins, and still have fingers left over.

Seriously. It’s quite simply not a matter of burning concern for them. Among the guitar handbuilders I’ve known I’ve heard far more discussion of kerfed linings versus solid linings.

That said, luthier Roy McAlister told me that he thinks ebony bridge pins give guitars a warmer sound than plastic pins do, and in a discussion on this forum luthier John Arnold mentioned that he believes the hardness of pins matters.

So I do think bridge pin materials can have a slight impact on the sound of acoustic guitars. But saddle materials are FAR more important, because that’s where the vibrations from the strings are transferred to the top.

Bridge pins aren’t “snake oil,” but they’re not a major corrective, either.

Hope that makes more sense...


Wade Hampton Miller

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

If in fact these small shop operations give more thought to bridge pins than the large scale manufacturers, I can guarantee that it’s still at a far lower pitch of intensity than the discussions on bridge pins that we see on this and other online guitar forums.

Bridge pins are an exceedingly minor part of the signal chain, if in fact they actually contribute to it at all.

You know, I’ve been around custom guitar builders and fine acoustic guitars since the mid-1970’s. I’ve met or spoken with over the phone many of the most respected builders and instrument dealers. People who build guitars by hand can generally talk your ears off about all sorts of minutia when it comes to what affects the tone.

Yet in all those years, I can count on one hand the times that these builders have discussed the tonal impact of bridge pins, and still have fingers left over.

Seriously. It’s quite simply not a matter of burning concern for them. Among the guitar handbuilders I’ve known I’ve heard far more discussion of kerfed linings versus solid linings.

That said, luthier Roy McAlister told me that he thinks ebony bridge pins give guitars a warmer sound than plastic pins do, and in a discussion on this forum luthier John Arnold mentioned that he believes the hardness of pins matters.

So I do think bridge pin materials can have a slight impact on the sound of acoustic guitars. But saddle materials are FAR more important, because that’s where the vibrations from the strings are transferred to the top.

Bridge pins aren’t “snake oil,” but they’re not a major corrective, either.

Hope that makes more sense...


Wade Hampton Miller

Very, Very Respectfully, as I greatly value the wonderful information you have provided to the forum over the years-- I will slightly disagree on this point.
You are right, most luthiers do not give consideration to bridge pins...absolutely. I have personally talked to big name luthiers that have said they have never tried other material bridge pins. That does not mean that it does not have some impact. And enough of an impact to make some difference.

I will says this Wade, On some guitars it makes a huge difference, and on some I can hear NO difference. Why this is, I could not say.

I have chased the tone now for several years...with Bridge Pins, my own custom bridge pins, Saddle material,( I make my own saddles) Tuners, Washers, Strings, back and sides woods & String Height at the 12th fret. Collectively...everything makes a difference.

I have chased the tone...and I have gotten it. And Bridge Pins are a part of it. All my friends can hear the difference when I demonstrate...and many Luthiers that I have shown can hear the difference. Is it a difference worth while to everyone...Is it a difference that works on every guitar--No...but for me..it is.

Another example is One microphone in one position on the guitar, works for a friend of mine...but will not work for me. We are recording at the same time...Why?...I will presume that a big part of it is our completely different playing styles.

[Brucebubs]

OK, so I've had my superb Huss & Dalton MJ Custom for a few weeks now.

Here's the only odd thing I could find with the guitar.



I removed the strings and found all the pins dropped into the holes perfectly.
So why do they sit uneven?
Easy.
The slots end a little too short and the string end binding catches on the pin collar and pulls the pins up.
Solution: carefully extend the slot.
Result:



With a little more work on the next string change I think I can get it even better.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

On the other hand, sometimes we go "the problems of one should be the problems of all..."

Some people think that way. However the solution to one may be the solution to many. Why do I bother posting any of this stuff? Because very few speak about it and fewer have any real knowledge of it or how to approach simple problems with simple solutions. Instead they throw their hands up and sell instruments that are this close to their expectations and satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Muddslide

90% of the "chasing the tone dragon" nonsense is snake oil.

There is quite a difference between chasing tone and chasing balance. In this example it is about making the strings sound equally and in the process demonstrating how so little as changing one little bridge pin can fix the problem. It is also a demonstration of how closely one should be listening.

How many of us actually try to achieve a TONE that we're looking to achieve with an instrument that should achieve it? I know I do that with my brass instruments, but have to plead mea culpa that I do not strive to do that as much on my guitars... but am working towards it.

But there are many aspects of guitar sounds that can be enhanced or subdued as needed. Why is this snake oil??? I changed the saddles in both my Taylors (both over $3000 new) and have much happier with the sound of both with pretty much any combination of strings and pins I throw at them. I've recently found that while I was enjoying a full set of ebony pins on a fresh set of Elixir strings, two weeks after string installation, the low E lost some of its mojo. Simply replacing that one pin with a buffalo horn pin brought back the liveliness and balance. It may extend my expectations of these strings another couple weeks. In fact, had I not had the Buffalo pin, I may have changed the strings already.

There is so much that can be achieve with such simple things.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

OK, so I've had my superb Huss & Dalton MJ Custom for a few weeks now.

Here's the only odd thing I could find with the guitar.

I removed the strings and found all the pins dropped into the holes perfectly.
So why do they sit uneven?
Easy.
The slots end a little too short and the string end binding catches on the pin collar and pulls the pins up.
Solution: carefully extend the slot.
Result:
With a little more work on the next string change I think I can get it even better.

I do this on All of my Bridge Pins. Besides letting the Bridge Pin sit properly in the hole...you have effectively increased the length of the string vibrating potential.

Before cutting through the Slot-extending the groove....you string was stopping on top of the bridge. Now it can vibrate to underneath the bridge.

Huss&Dalton is a great instrument. I briefly owned a Cocobolo H&D. I changed out the type of Bridge pins..and it made no difference on that guitar. I also have a 1980's Gurian..and bridge pins make not difference. But on my other guitars...quite a difference.

Let break from our beloved acoustics and mention electrics. Who among us have not changed the Angle of our pickup to try and Balance out the trebel and bass strings? I believe some people have even raised individual screws on humbuckers.

That is all Vindibonal1 is doing. Balancing. He is just doing it with Bridge pins. There are also other ways to balance and change the tone of our guitar as well. Saddle material & Strings.

[SprintBob]

While I am pessimistic that my ears will be able to tell a difference, I decided to buy some different bridge pins and will play around with this science project. At worst if I hear no difference, might be cool if the change is aesthetically improving.

I did try a set of Power Pins on an all hog Taylor 522e and felt there was an improvement (more volume and clarity) and I have a second set that I think I am going to try on my Taylor K-22ce. I kind of like the looks of the Power Pins (seems like its a love/hate kind of reaction for most) and I really enjoy the ease of string changing with them.

[Muddslide]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Even at the drag strip, there's a million human factors... Even when the physics dictate a clear advantage (which is not the case with different bridge pin material), changing a guitar only makes it "better" if it makes you play it "better".

Amen. There really is no such thing as "better" in an objective sense.

In a restaurant of 100 diners, 50% may think the glazed salmon is "better" than the fillet mignon. Does that mean the salmon IS better and that those who preferred the mignon were "wrong?"

Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by vindibona1

There is quite a difference between chasing tone and chasing balance. In this example it is about making the strings sound equally and in the process demonstrating how so little as changing one little bridge pin can fix the problem. It is also a demonstration of how closely one should be listening.

Point taken.

...there are many aspects of guitar sounds that can be enhanced or subdued as needed. Why is this snake oil??? I changed the saddles in both my Taylors (both over $3000 new) and have much happier with the sound of both with pretty much any combination of strings and pins I throw at them. I've recently found that while I was enjoying a full set of ebony pins on a fresh set of Elixir strings, two weeks after string installation, the low E lost some of its mojo. Simply replacing that one pin with a buffalo horn pin brought back the liveliness and balance. It may extend my expectations of these strings another couple weeks. In fact, had I not had the Buffalo pin, I may have changed the strings already.

There is so much that can be achieve with such simple things.

Agreed. Particularly regarding your last sentence. That's why I always say "there are so many variables."

Everything from bridge pins to how many winds of string you have at the tuners to relative humidity to how long since you last filed your fingernails.

I mean, if you add or remove a throw pillow from the room in which you are playing, it's going to affect what you hear.

My only real point (if I ever had one) is that we have to decide what is optimal for each of us as far as tone is concerned, and what level of minutia we are willing to go to supposedly reach that optimization.

Also, the negligible changes in nuance perhaps detectable through something like a bridge pin swap are utterly subsumed by more substantial modifications like new strings, nut, saddle, picks, playing technique, etc., many of which arguably have a greater, more measurable effect on things.

So, yes. Changing out a bridge pin may to some degree alter the tone or balance of your guitar.

But if you, say, switch from strumming to flatpicking or fingerpicking, or change strings, that alteration may no longer be noticeable at all, or you may think the old pins worked better with a different playing style, and so on.

There really is no right or wrong to any of this other than: "Play what you like, and like what you play."

It's a wonderful thing that players can go buy a $300 Asian mass produced guitar off a music shop wall and just start playing the heck of it or can go to high end shops or luthiers, lay out tens of thousands and spend as much time testing the impact of a bridge pin exchange or marvel over differences in tone between their boutique instruments made of different woods as they do playing.

It's awesome that there is room for everybody...the player who wants to rival Tommy Emmanuel or Andres Segovia or the no-less-legitimate weekend warrior who has little interest in more than knocking out 3 chord country songs.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

That is all Vindibonal1 is doing. Balancing. He is just doing it with Bridge pins. There are also other ways to balance and change the tone of our guitar as well. Saddle material & Strings.

Well explained.

I don't think I've a guitar that didn't have some characteristic that bothered me to varying degrees (OK, one guitar that seemS without flaws). Sometimes it's so inherent in the guitar that there's nothing that can make enough difference. I've given up when a guitar produces annoying harmonics, or a wolf note.

I've heard minor positive results from the changing bridge pin material, but if done in attempt to correct the inherent annoying nature of a guitar, it hasn't been enough of a difference to change my mind about whether to keep the guitar.

Fine tuning a guitar that suits you, however, is a different matter.

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by Muddslide

In a restaurant of 100 diners, 50% may think the glazed salmon is "better" than the fillet mignon. Does that mean the salmon IS better and that those who preferred the mignon were "wrong?"

Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Right or wrong, I'll take a fillet mignon and a side order of ebony pins. Medium rare on the pins, please.