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Old 11-20-2023, 02:16 PM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Default Recording fingerstyle pieces previously recorded by other guitarists

Hello,

I am in the process of getting guitar arrangements together for an album of solo fingerstyle pieces. I play mostly my own arrangements of traditional Irish and Scottish music along with some original pieces, this actually will be my second album and I am making this post because of something I ran into while recording last time.

It almost never fails that when I hear a traditional piece I really like enough to possibly arrange and then do research I find that a number of guitarists beat me to the punch and there are already several guitar versions. I wound up recording a few often tackled tunes anyway and tried to set them apart by putting moving bass lines and a lot of counterpoint around the melodies. I took this approach to hopefully make my own arrangements different from the next guitarist's... not better just different.

Now that I'm getting things together for a second album I'm wondering if what I described above was possibly TOO MUCH and did my approach sacrifice or dampen feeling in the music. Sometimes I feel like I am so vested in what I'm doing that it gets hard to judge myself.

With that in mind I am including a link to a previously recorded tune and I'd ask that you possibly take a minutes or two to listen... I'd would welcome any honest thoughts & comments regarding the overall feel of this tune whether good, bad, or in-between. Thanks in advance for taking the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K79hiCT0N6I
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Old 11-20-2023, 02:47 PM
jazzereh jazzereh is offline
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I took the time, Ray, and enjoyed the tune in your link. While I'm not 'that' much into Celtic styles, it was a good tune and well played. I don't know the tune or how others might have recorded it.

My main point to you would be that whatever you record, make it 'your' recording. Esthetically and artistically it is up to you to be satisfied with what you are putting out in the world. Others will always have something to say about the tune but it's ultimately your music. If I was putting out a recording it would not go out unless I was happy with how everything sounded. A musician has to have a really thick skin when it comes to the comments from others so do it how you decide and be confident in the results. Don't be overly concerned about what others say. [Yes, maybe someone has a good idea about the performance and that would be a bonus for the next time.]

Maybe you are trying to get your music aired on radio or streamed or something. If that is the case, perhaps you might need to consider what kind of music would be appealing to the people who program those kinds of media. Don't know, but, I do think that any artist who gets popular on some form of media has initially just thought about what 'they' wanted to create.

I have not, and likely to not ever, record myself for public release but I do try to make any tune I do my own. I think of an intro/extro or something I can do while playing the tune to make it different than other versions. Sometimes I'm happy with that, sometimes not so much. But I'm only playing for myself or family or close friends.

Best of luck with this new recording.
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Old 11-20-2023, 03:12 PM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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jazzereh... thank you for taking the time to listen and to post your thoughtful response.

I very consciously made a decision to arrange this tune and a few others a certain way and never looked back BUT I recently read a quote from a player I very much admire regarding fingerstyle guitarists killing feel via busy playing... a few others have asked if some of the tunes on my last CD were double tracked (they are not) and it just got me thinking a bit so I figured I'd throw the question & tune out there and take the bad with the good.

Thanks again, jazzereh.

Last edited by Ray Gehringer; 11-20-2023 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 11-20-2023, 05:15 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Would not worry about that too much. Closest to Richard Thompson's arrangement of what I have heard but your own stamp and variations.
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Old 11-21-2023, 04:39 AM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Thanks for your feedback, rick-slo.

I know that I’ve heard Richard Thompson’s version of Banish Misfortune along the way but it has been a while. I’ve been influenced by Richard in the way that he doesn’t always play Fingerstyle and/or Crosspicking pieces sort of “nicey-nicey” sounding and adds some grit and fire into the works. I’m curious to hear his version of Banish Misfortune again…I’ll find it on YouTube and give it a listen.

Thanks!

Last edited by Ray Gehringer; 11-21-2023 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 11-21-2023, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
"and tried to set them apart by putting moving bass lines and a lot of counterpoint around the melodies. I took this approach to hopefully make my own arrangements different from the next guitarist's... not better just different."

I think consciously doing that in an attempt to be "different" can kill the vibe and yes is often "TOO MUCH"...


IMO Here is the thing to remember---- intentionally trying to be "different" is it's own kind of conformity AND not the same things as making the original your own and authentic ,,,in fact doing that can sometimes have just the opposite effect, and make your arrangement begin to feel more contrived , and less authentic .

On a different (ha pun) subject

As for the recording you posted, I think it does have almost a kind of double tracked resonance to it. ??
Now wether that is some reflective room resonance or using two mic's positioned slightly out of phase I have n idea , but it has that feel ??
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Last edited by KevWind; 11-21-2023 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 11-22-2023, 08:37 AM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
As for the recording you posted, I think it does have almost a kind of double tracked resonance to it. ??
Now wether that is some reflective room resonance or using two mic's positioned slightly out of phase I have n idea , but it has that feel ??
KevWind - Thanks for responding to my post. The recording engineer used two mics... one a brand new programmable stereo mic and the other an old ribbon mic. I left all the technical stuff to him and just concentrated on playing. However, the people who asked about double tracking were guitar players who probably didn't think I could play it all legitimately in one pass... which partially led me wonder in retrospect if it actually may have been a bit busy.
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Old 11-22-2023, 10:33 AM
mawmow mawmow is offline
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I became interested in « Celtic » repertoire (as well as alternate tunings)
a few years ago.

I unfortunately do not know that piece you play.
Your arrangement appears very cozy to me but well played.

My only less positive point is the tone that appears light, bright and dry to me,
but it is only a matter of personal taste, doesn’t it ?

So, overall, do not worry : You ought to deliver a piece the way you feel it
and you do it better that I could ever do.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-22-2023, 10:39 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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I think your playing sounded great, Ray. I enjoyed it. I don't know any other arrangements of this piece, but I liked what you did.

Yes, it was a little busy, but busy can sound interesting. I thought it sounded interesting and good. The only thing I noticed is that the attack on the strings is perhaps a little harsh, so that the sound is a little hard-edged. But I am guessing that's because you are working so hard to get all those notes in there. There may not be any way around that unless a little EQ is added in the mastering. I also find that using a tape recorder plug-in simulator during mastering takes a lot of the digital edges off a recording.

Your playing reminds me a little of John Renbourn. I have always thought his instrumental playing was always jaw-droppingly good.

I enjoyed this!

- Glenn
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Old 11-22-2023, 10:44 AM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawmow View Post
My only less positive point is the tone that appears light, bright and dry to me,
but it is only a matter of personal taste, doesnÂ’t it ?
MAWMOW... I agree regarding the tone, BUT, it was the best I could do at the time. Since the recording of my last CD I have been working on a lighter touch with my right hand fingers (picking fingers.) And I have been using a different and naturally better sounding acoustic guitar. Regarding dryness... I was going for minimal use of reverb.

Thank you for your honest thoughts.
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Old 11-22-2023, 10:51 AM
ssjk ssjk is online now
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I think your instinct that it is a bit busy is correct.

For me, the melody got lost in the background and what came through was the rhythm and the adornments. That might be due to the attack that Glenn mentioned but I think it is more than that.

I can’t play it that well but if I could I’d think melody first and add rhythm and adornments to that.
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Old 11-22-2023, 11:00 AM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
I think your playing sounded great, Ray. I enjoyed it. I don't know any other arrangements of this piece, but I liked what you did.

Yes, it was a little busy, but busy can sound interesting. I thought it sounded interesting and good. The only thing I noticed is that the attack on the strings is perhaps a little harsh, so that the sound is a little hard-edged. But I am guessing that's because you are working so hard to get all those notes in there. There may not be any way around that unless a little EQ is added in the mastering. I also find that using a tape recorder plug-in simulator during mastering takes a lot of the digital edges off a recording.

Your playing reminds me a little of John Renbourn. I have always thought his instrumental playing was always jaw-droppingly good.

I enjoyed this!

- Glenn
Glennwillow... thank you! The performance was basically what I wanted it to be and now I am playing Monday Morning Quarterback in a way but just to hopefully make adjustments where needed on the next CD.

A friend & great player who happened to be the mastering engineer on the CD made the same comment regarding harshness and you are both correct. Some had to do with a lot going on performance-wise as in a lot of independent right hand/fingers movement and independent left hand/fingers movement BUT I think the biggest culprit was nerves. I've recorded as part of ensembles and never had problems with nerves BUT recording solo... I got Red Light Syndrome in a big way and hit the strings a little too hard. Not making excuses just trying to learn from past experiences.

Last edited by Ray Gehringer; 11-22-2023 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 11-22-2023, 11:03 AM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjk View Post
I think your instinct that it is a bit busy is correct.

For me, the melody got lost in the background and what came through was the rhythm and the adornments. That might be due to the attack that Glenn mentioned but I think it is more than that.

I can’t play it that well but if I could I’d think melody first and add rhythm and adornments to that.
ssjk - Thank you for your honest comments. Point taken.
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Old 11-22-2023, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Gehringer View Post
KevWind - Thanks for responding to my post. The recording engineer used two mics... one a brand new programmable stereo mic and the other an old ribbon mic. I left all the technical stuff to him and just concentrated on playing. However, the people who asked about double tracking were guitar players who probably didn't think I could play it all legitimately in one pass... which partially led me wonder in retrospect if it actually may have been a bit busy.
Ah OK so I would say (and this is totally just my opinion and wild speculation) that either something was off in the "programmable stereo mic" itself like out of phase with itself --bad algorithm ? ---- or as I said the stereo mic was out of phase with the ribbon. Because two mics recorded properly (even a ribbon and some other mic) should not be giving you that phasey out of sync effect . In other words I honestly think your engineer screwed up...IMO

And just so know if these "guitar players" who may have thought you double tracked because you couldn't play it thought "legitimately" ? then I would guess if so , then they have little clue about either recording or double tracking. Because to have double tracked it that close, is much much harder and takes way more skill than simply tracking it one time through with no hiccups --- juss sayin'
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Last edited by KevWind; 11-24-2023 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 11-23-2023, 06:48 AM
Ray Gehringer Ray Gehringer is offline
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Thank you all for taking the time to listen and offer your thoughts, I appreciate it.

Happy Thanksgiving.
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