question about standard luthier interaction in anticipation of a build

[Merlemantel]

I have been interacting with several luthiers in anticipation of a custom build. In one case, the primary interaction has been by email, and with the luthier's wife. I reached the point where I wanted to discuss tone woods, and I emailed the luthier's wife and asked if I might speak at some point with the luthier about tone woods. She replied that I should email her my questions, she would talk with the luthier, and get back to me. This is a well-known luthier, who has decades of experience. Without knowing anything about my customizations, I was told they could build me a guitar in October. The other luthiers with whom I have been interacting are booking out a year or two. Should any of this give me pause?

[Kevin Caton]

As a custom builder myself I can give you a unique dual prespective on this.

When I take in a commision, I wouldnt even concider building for a client without haveing a nice long conversation with them. I find that it is far more productive to have a good relationship with the client and to be certain that I am the right builder for them. If I dont feel like the instrument is something that is right for my building style, then I am more than happy to refer them to a builder that I respect and feel is a better fit. The last thing I want is an unhappy client that tells others about how unhappy they are.

WITH THAT SAID:

The creative side... Builders build how they build. Some of us have a shop so clean you could preform surgery on their bench and others will lose a pencil in the mess of tools and wood chips the second they put it down. Some of us want to have a 5 hour conversation with every person that has even the slightest intrest in our builds and others want to be left completely alone. You are dealing with the personallity of a creative person and to be honest...some of us are weird.

The business side...I know several builders whos wife takes care of the business side. They answer the phone. respond to email, do the accounting etc. If a builder has enough work taking phone calls means not being in the shop, and that means not getting the work done. I truely enjoy speaking to my clients but I am a one man shop. Sometimes Im crazy busy and Im just not ansering the phone and you may not get a email responce from me for a few days.

You are not buying an off the shelf instrument. You are going out of your way to have YOUR instrument built. You shouldnt be crossing your fingers and hoping you get what you want. My suggestion is to be respectfully blunt and honest about your concerns to the the builder.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by Kevin Caton

As a custom builder myself I can give you a unique dual prespective on this.

When I take in a commision, I wouldnt even concider building for a client without haveing a nice long conversation with them. I find that it is far more productive to have a good relationship with the client and to be certain that I am the right builder for them. If I dont feel like the instrument is something that is right for my building style, then I am more than happy to refer them to a builder that I respect and feel is a better fit. The last thing I want is an unhappy client that tells others about how unhappy they are.

WITH THAT SAID:

The creative side... Builders build how they build. Some of us have a shop so clean you could preform surgery on their bench and others will lose a pencil in the mess of tools and wood chips the second they put it down. Some of us want to have a 5 hour conversation with every person that has even the slightest intrest in our builds and others want to be left completely alone. You are dealing with the personallity of a creative person and to be honest...some of us are weird.

The business side...I know several builders whos wife takes care of the business side. They answer the phone. respond to email, do the accounting etc. If a builder has enough work taking phone calls means not being in the shop, and that means not getting the work done. I truely enjoy speaking to my clients but I am a one man shop. Sometimes Im crazy busy and Im just not ansering the phone and you may not get a email responce from me for a few days.

You are not buying an off the shelf instrument. You are going out of your way to have YOUR instrument built. You shouldnt be crossing your fingers and hoping you get what you want. My suggestion is to be respectfully blunt and honest about your concerns to the the builder.

Most helpful. Thank you. What is the typical build time for a gifted luthier who is well known? I can sense this is a dumb question, but if you could shed some light, I would appreciate it.

[Kevin Caton]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

Most helpful. Thank you. What is the typical build time for a gifted luthier who is well known? I can sense this is a dumb question, but if you could shed some light, I would appreciate it.

I dont really ask other builders what their backlog is so Im not sure. Some builders may be able to start it immediately, and some builders may not be able to start it for 2 or more years. In many cases this may have more to do with how they build and organize their work flow then how many builds they have on the books. Some builders dont mind building 3 maybe even 5 guitars at a time and others want to completley finish each build befor they even think of starting another.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by Kevin Caton

I dont really ask other builders what their backlog is so Im not sure. Some builders may be able to start it immediately, and some builders may not be able to start it for 2 or more years. In many cases this may have more to do with how they build and organize their work flow then how many builds they have on the books. Some builders dont mind building 3 maybe even 5 guitars at a time and others want to completley finish each build befor they even think of starting another.

Thank you for your generosity answering my questions, Kevin.

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

Most helpful. Thank you. What is the typical build time for a gifted luthier who is well known? I can sense this is a dumb question, but if you could shed some light, I would appreciate it.

Anywhere from practically none (I believe I recall Bruce Sexauer commenting that he's never had a lead time of more than a few months) to more than a decade (if they haven't stopped taking orders).

The problem with asking about what is standard is that there is no standard. We're talking about people who are self-employed and have very different personalities and practices.

Some of them will talk your ear off and send you dozens of progress pictures.

Some of them will build you a guitar from the build sheet and hardly speak to you.

Part of the process is being aware of what your needs and expectations are and finding a builder that meets them. Failing to clearly express your needs and expectations, or trying to pressure a builder into doing things your way rather than accepting that they have a way of doing things, are both likely to lead to disappointment.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

Anywhere from practically none (I believe I recall Bruce Sexauer commenting that he's never had a lead time of more than a few months) to more than a decade (if they haven't stopped taking orders).

The problem with asking about what is standard is that there is no standard. We're talking about people who are self-employed and have very different personalities and practices.

Some of them will talk your ear off and send you dozens of progress pictures.

Some of them will build you a guitar from the build sheet and hardly speak to you.

Part of the process is being aware of what your needs and expectations are and finding a builder that meets them. Failing to clearly express your needs and expectations, or trying to pressure a builder into doing things your way rather than accepting that they have a way of doing things, are both likely to lead to disappointment.

Makes total sense. It is not my way to pressure anyone. That said, I don't want to spend several thousand dollars without having some kind of communication with the luthier, especially up front. I know the sound I'm after, but I don't know which top set, back and sides, etc, would best produce that sound. I also wouldn't approach a luthier without first having some sense of his art, the sound his instruments produce in general, fundamental to overtone ratio, etc. We need to have an understanding of some sort before he or she sets out to make me a guitar. I don't know how you really do that through a third person, by email.

[mikealpine]

Part of the process is making sure you and the builder are in alignment with how the discussion starts and progresses from there. Type and frequency of communication may be an important factor for you, specifically a conversation. While I believe I am in your camp in that I would want to talk with the builder, they are just as clearly allowed to work within their business process, and if that means all communication goes through his wife, it’s ok for you to decide you don’t want to work with them. If you already have played this builder’s guitars, know you like their signature sound and are comfortable going with his process, so be it. It’s all about choices, theirs and yours, with no judgements.

All that said, if it were me, I would politely request a call at any time they’d be willing. If that was refused, I’d find a luthier I was more comfortable with.

Good luck with your search!

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I don't know how you really do that through a third person, by email.

I think you've kind of answered the question here.

If you need a free and open channel of communication with the builder to meet your needs, and that is being denied, then you probably need to expressly communicate that need and move on if it is not met. Or else reevalute your expectations.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

I think you've kind of answered the question here.

If you need a free and open channel of communication with the builder to meet your needs, and that is being denied, then you probably need to expressly communicate that need and move on if it is not met. Or else reevalute your expectations.

Excellent advice.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by mikealpine

Part of the process is making sure you and the builder are in alignment with how the discussion starts and progresses from there. Type and frequency of communication may be an important factor for you, specifically a conversation. While I believe I am in your camp in that I would want to talk with the builder, they are just as clearly allowed to work within their business process, and if that means all communication goes through his wife, it’s ok for you to decide you don’t want to work with them. If you already have played this builder’s guitars, know you like their signature sound and are comfortable going with his process, so be it. It’s all about choices, theirs and yours, with no judgements.

All that said, if it were me, I would politely request a call at any time they’d be willing. If that was refused, I’d find a luthier I was more comfortable with.

Good luck with your search!

Yes, this makes sense.

[colins]

In case you didn’t see this thread – https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=589449

I’d echo Warfrat on build times – for my custom builds with five different luthiers (all well-known and well-regarded) the wait time has been from zero to two years.

And as to talking with the luthiers, all my builds have included long talks with the actual builder at the start. I would feel very uncomfortable without this. The build and handover process then involves more talks, and often some enjoyable lunches and dinners too!

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

Makes total sense. It is not my way to pressure anyone. That said, I don't want to spend several thousand dollars without having some kind of communication with the luthier, especially up front. I know the sound I'm after, but I don't know which top set, back and sides, etc, would best produce that sound. I also wouldn't approach a luthier without first having some sense of his art, the sound his instruments produce in general, fundamental to overtone ratio, etc. We need to have an understanding of some sort before he or she sets out to make me a guitar. I don't know how you really do that through a third person, by email.

I see at least three problems in your response here -

1) Several thousand dollars? That's the price of a higher end factory build - I think to get an experienced, well-regarded solo luthier custom build, with high quality woods, you are looking at 8 to 10k, and with many of the best builders, 15k or more. Some routinely charge over 25k, especially if you want top grade Braz rw -

2) If you know the sound you want, you need to be able to express that clearly to the builder - many do not want to get into a lengthy discussion of tonewoods, and what you heard on the internet, or what your friend thinks. A really good luthier knows their inventory, what's available, and has the experience to build for your style and preference. The one time they may want your input is if they have multiple sets of say, mahogany, or sitka, and you may have a preference about the grain, color, or details - like bear claw, yay or nay?. Some people are more concerned about a tiny bit of runout even if the builder thinks it might be the best sounding top they have, others may want the most perfect looking, even if it may not be the luthiers first choice.

3) If you want to get into having a custom build done, you really need to make the effort to go out and try guitars by the builders you may want to work with first. Every builder has a different style and tonal signature, which they may be able to alter slightly, but you don't go out into the weeds trying to get one builder to build just like a different builder. You can listen to YouTube videos, and dealer videos, and even many luthiers offer video demos of their guitars. The best builders are working under the assumption that you want a guitar that you haven't been able to find elsewhere, and you want it built to meet your expectations so it satisfies you for the rest of your life. Which clearly doesn't happen as often as people would like, based on the number of custom builds that go up for sale within a year or so of them being recvd -

None of this happens by email, or via third party - but if every person who say they want a custom guitar, spent hours and hours interacting with multiple luthiers shopping for what they want, then I don't know if any of them would have any time left to build anything. But once you've decided who builds the style of guitar you want, and you have a basic idea of cost and time-frame, and it all seems reasonable and you are willing to commit to the process, then you'll generally find that the really good luthiers will put you, and your build, as the most important thing they are doing, for that period of time. That interaction, and that process, is why so many people get multiple customs built - its extremely addicting -

There is so much more involved, and I hope you get a good result from your efforts, but I think you need to be more real about what your looking to get and what level of involvement you can have in finding it -

[Dotneck]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I don't know how you really do that through a third person, by email.

You could give her a try. I’d bet that, if he has her doing this work, she has the ability to understand your questions and respond appropriately. If you don’t like the answers then move on to your next choice luthier.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I have been interacting with several luthiers in anticipation of a custom build. In one case, the primary interaction has been by email, and with the luthier's wife. I reached the point where I wanted to discuss tone woods, and I emailed the luthier's wife and asked if I might speak at some point with the luthier about tone woods. She replied that I should email her my questions, she would talk with the luthier, and get back to me. This is a well-known luthier, who has decades of experience. Without knowing anything about my customizations, I was told they could build me a guitar in October. The other luthiers with whom I have been interacting are booking out a year or two. Should any of this give me pause?

I wouldn't want to do business with a builder I couldn't talk to. Full stop. It's not fun going through an intermediary, and a lot is lost in translation. It's the same reason I won't commission a guitar through a shop.

Second, emailing around to find a builder is a risky way of selecting a builder. Not all guitar builders are created equally, and it's hard to really know what a builder can do until you play their work. I have not generally found emailing/talking to builders to give you any meaningful information about what the guitar will sound like. The various guitar shows over the years have been quite eye-opening for me. There are a lot of people that make fine looking instruments. Fewer that make fine sounding and playing instruments.