Simple Preamp Comparison

[Doug Young]

The world would be boring if we all liked the same sounds :-) I am mostly looking to accurately reproduce what I hear when I play any given guitar, but there's nothing wrong with looking for "a sound", and I'd take a dose of magic that wasn't realistic if I found something I liked.

Thanks for posting those tracks, that's quite a preamp collection you have!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The world would be boring if we all liked the same sounds :-) I am mostly looking to accurately reproduce what I hear when I play any given guitar, but there's nothing wrong with looking for "a sound", and I'd take a dose of magic that wasn't realistic if I found something I liked.

Thanks for posting those tracks, that's quite a preamp collection you have!

Adding a magnetic pickup (and certain others) to the sound can be nice. Doubt I will ever do that but I like the sound of it on some recordings I have heard.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The world would be boring if we all liked the same sounds :-) I am mostly looking to accurately reproduce what I hear when I play any given guitar, but there's nothing wrong with looking for "a sound", and I'd take a dose of magic that wasn't realistic if I found something I liked.

Thanks for posting those tracks, that's quite a preamp collection you have!

So true Doug!

I only have a bunch of preamps because sometimes I record bands and need the channels, that's how I pay the rent on my studio. Otherwise the collection would be pared down considerably as I know what works for me!

Here is forum member Midwinter's duet recording in my studio (his guitar is going through two KM184s into the Sebatron)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud7TrCFE23o

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Adding a magnetic pickup to the sound can be nice. Doubt I will ever do that but I like the sound of it on some recordings I have heard.

There's a magnetic mixed in here....

[Doug Young]

OK, here's a Great River vs RPQ comparison. What I did was use 2 pairs of mics, 1 Schoeps CMC6/MK41 on the left, 1 Gefell M300 on the right, in each pair. Placed as close together in spaced pairs as I could, and recorded simultaneously. I first record a calibration track, using 4 channels of the ensemble. In theory this is two identical signal chains, so they should sound identical. Differences might be due to the 1/2 inch different mic positions, or whatever. But I can't get closer to identical than this. I used a different guitar this time. Here's the mic setup:

IMG_1966.jpg

The Ensemble tracks, pair 1 and pair 2, recorded simultaneously:



Then the Great River (first), followed by the RPQ, again, recorded simutaneously:



Tracks recorded at 88.2, both using the Ensemble A/D, and you can download to listen without streaming.

[rick-slo]

Great River a little cleaner and more detailed. RPQ a little thicker bodied notes. I would go with the Great River.

[Doug Young]

I almost always use the Great River as my main preamp for studio recording. The RPQ I use for ribbons, which I sometimes combine with condensers for multi-micing. I have tried a few other preamps over the years, and all seem fine, but nothing stands out as better than the Great River. Too bad this model isn't made anymore.

[AcousticDreams]

Doug! Oh My! I absolutely adore this short intro of yours! I feel like I am a leaf floating through the bluest sky! I am at Peace! I have listened to this now a number of times and just don't get tired of it...So moving. A masterpiece!

Great shootout..and once again thank you. I will need to listen up another 20 times or so(but no problem since I love these notes of yours)
For some strange reason I do hear quite a difference in the reference Ensemble tracks. I know you mentioned that possibility of a 1/2 inch difference in the mic placement-- of being one on top of another.

On your second recording with the River vs AEA preamps...what are your thoughts-observations between the two? Since you know how your guitar sounds the best.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I almost always use the Great River as my main preamp for studio recording. The RPQ I use for ribbons, which I sometimes combine with condensers for multi-micing. I have tried a few other preamps over the years, and all seem fine, but nothing stands out as better than the Great River. Too bad this model isn't made anymore.

Yes, I have had the Great River MP-2H for years though now I always use my NPNG DMP-2NW which is a super preamp. My Mytek Stereo96 ADC was also a nice improvement over the prior ADC I was using. It all adds up.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Yes, I have had the Great River MP-2H for years though now I always use my NPNG DMP-2NW which is a super preamp. My Mytek Stereo96 ADC was also a nice improvement over the prior ADC I was using. It all adds up.

What do you find different about the NPNG over the Great River? NPNG is out of my price range. IF I remember correctly...wasn't the NPNG designed-calibrated using the Gefells M300's?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Doug! Oh My! I absolutely adore this short intro of yours! I feel like I am a leaf floating through the bluest sky! I am at Peace! I have listened to this now a number of times and just don't get tired of it...So moving. A masterpiece!

Great shootout..and once again thank you. I will need to listen up another 20 times or so(but no problem since I love these notes of yours)
For some strange reason I do hear quite a difference in the reference Ensemble tracks. I know you mentioned that possibility of a 1/2 inch difference in the mic placement-- of being one on top of another.

On your second recording with the River vs AEA preamps...what are your thoughts-observations between the two? Since you know how your guitar sounds the best.

I prefer the sound of the Great River, but to me, it's subtle, and if I didn't have it to compare to, I'd be happy with either the RPQ or the Ensemble takes.

I don't really hear much difference in the Ensemble reference tracks, but I noted some minor differences in levels between them (down in the 1/100ths of a db range) and in the stereo balance, which is interesting. But I think this is an indication that it's easy to chase phantoms here. If you can hear the difference between matched mics as close together as physically possible, or if different channels of the same multi-channel preamp sound different, how much variation will you hear between different mics or preamps of the same model? or 2 different performances? At some point, it's noise. What if the humidity changes, or my strings turn a day older? That will also change things. If I just posted any 1 of these tracks (even just the Zoom track), you'd just decide if it sounded good or not, and more likely than not, the decision would have more to do with what I played than anything else...

My take-away on this whole thread is that people general agree that the Zoom preamp sounded noticeable worse, but judgements seem split on everything else. I do prefer the Great River, but in the end, the differences are so minor... If I had to choose between a performance I didn't like on the Great River, and a good take on the Zoom, I'd take the Zoom (remember, these samples are totally raw - a little EQ, a little reverb, and the differences get smaller). I use the Zoom all the time on my You Tube videos, and tho there's a "good enough for you tube" mentality for both the sound and the performance (I make mistakes on video I'd never let stand on a CD recording), I'm never bothered by the sound quality.

Glad you enjoyed the little ditty I played, just some noodling waiting to be used in a tune someday, maybe...

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

...[snip]...NPNG is out of my price range. ...[snip]...

Maybe, but maybe not if you consider the used one I told you about.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I almost always use the Great River as my main preamp for studio recording. The RPQ I use for ribbons, which I sometimes combine with condensers for multi-micing. I have tried a few other preamps over the years, and all seem fine, but nothing stands out as better than the Great River. Too bad this model isn't made anymore.

The Great River had more clarity, and the RPQ imparted a bit of beef to the signal. I can see both being used for different reason! For your type of playing, I think I would prefer the Great River! Good comparison!

[AcousticDreams]

Doug Seriously, that noodling...would be the most beautiful opening to a melodic vocal song....Something enchanting...in the likes of the Moody Blues with a Celtic Twist!

Hmmm? maybe I will have to write an enchanting song to go with this..ha ha We can split the royalties! ha ha..

I am so glad you mentioned that your Great river is no longer made. I found a thread from 10 years ago on Gearsluzt...two different people said about the same thing.

"from what I have heard it was designed with completely different objectives. The NV is built as an improved Neve (I suppose that is how they came up with the name). The MH should be cleaner and more "modern".

The MH is a very clean, clear, dare I say "transparent" kind of mic amp... along the lines of a John Hardy or GML kinda pre except that it had a bit more soul and 'mojo' than either the Hardy or the GML... the "NV" series is meant to have "a sound" which is alterable in character [gain scaling stuff], meant to "stack" like nobody's business... but has "a sound" none the less.

What is especially appealing is there is another model of AEA without the eq and still has the phantom powering for only $899 Called the TRP2. I think they are relatively the same without the eq extras.

I will have to do some more serious listening to see if the price difference between a new TRP2 and a used Great river 2 is worth the difference. With you microphone shootout...it is absolutely clear to myself..that the Schoeps is where I need to go. With the preamp...not as clearly defined.

Never the less, would not have any funds till early next year anyway...So I have time to make some more listening. And NAMM now has integrated the AES into it...They have a huge recording section now.

A quick Moodly Blues Story. Since your tune brought big feelings. It was back in the late seventies...or more likely...early 80's(too long ago to exactly remember) I had gone to the AES convention. In those days...not that many people went to the AES. It was nothing like NAMM. As everything was so expensive, your average musician would not go.

Anyway....I used to own a Chamberlain-up until about 12 or so years ago...which is the original inventor of the Melotron. Chamberlains where made right here in Southern California. For those of you who are not familiar with this keyboard...It is a Keyboard with individual notes-Tapes..like a piano string...with a Tape instead of string. 8seconds of strings, flutes, violins, trumpets, Trombones, obes and bassoons. The Moody Blues used Melotrons and Chamberlains.

Mike Pinder the Keyboard player was sitting just outside in the AES talking to about 15 people. They were all listening intently. I recognized him and yelled out. "MIKE" He turned around...and I further said " Mike Pinder?" I had mispronounced his name. He very politely corrected me. I then said. " I have a Chamberlain too!" He jumped up and left his group of friends...and was very interested in talking to me. I had a special adaption on mine. I did not mean to interrupt him...I was just excited to see him...and he did not mind at all, as I was a fellow Chamberlain owner. I doubt there were more than a couple of hundred of those machines ever made.

Later that afternoon at the AES, I ran into him again. This time in a small unattended booth. I said " Hey Mike...I am sorry to have to mention this. But just last night I was listening to "Melancholy Man"(a song he wrote ) and the song just blows me away" He loved that I could appreciate his ever so enchanting song...and we talk a bit more.

A couple of hours later...I was driving on the 101 fwy home to my house in Northridge...I drove a Chevy Van at the time...And I looked over...and Mike was Throwing me the peace sign from his BMW. He had recognized me in my van on the freeway! Luckily I just happen to look over.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

What do you find different about the NPNG over the Great River?

Very, very, close. I bit more body on the notes with the NPNG without loss in clarity.

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

IF I remember correctly...wasn't the NPNG designed-calibrated using the Gefells M300's?

I posted that bit of trivia some years back so I assume you pick that up there. Since I have a pair of M300s I thought that was pretty neat.