Beater sounds better than high end guitar?

[TBman]

Strings.....

I have a very inexpensive all laminate classical and have noticed that some strings take a looong time to mellow.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

It really should not be a surprise at all. If you look at the quality of guitars being built in China for under $400.00.

Now take that same factory, add to it all solid exotic woods, and alter constructions slightly to match that of HIGH end guitars, it should be blatantly clear that NO guitar is worth in excess of $5000.00 NO GUITAR.
You take that $400.00 guitar, and make if out of the same wood as the high end guitar, and duplicate the structure, that is not high end engineering to copy, and that Chinese factory could produce the same guitar for UNDER $1,000.00.
So in reality, do you want a great sounding guitar, or a high priced headstock logo ?

Ed

I understand the sentiment but I’m not sure I totally agree. I am blown away by some of the less expensive imports that I have played. There are some really nice import guitars that play and sound great. However, though I don’t own a one-off custom built guitar (costing in excess of $5000) I have played a fair share of them. As good as the less expensive guitars may be, they did not sound, feel, and look as good as the Luthier built guitars that I have played. That does not mean the import builders could not do as good as a job for less, but i have not played a sub $1000 guitar that riveled any luthier built guitars I have played. With that said there are some sub $3000 and perhaps sub $2000 imports that can reach that level of craftsman ship you are refereeing to.

But as to the OP’s point, for any givien application, the “beater” might be a better choice and can do justice to the player, more than an expensive guitar.

[Muddslide]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

It really should not be a surprise at all. If you look at the quality of guitars being built in China for under $400.00.

Now take that same factory, add to it all solid exotic woods, and alter constructions slightly to match that of HIGH end guitars, it should be blatantly clear that NO guitar is worth in excess of $5000.00 NO GUITAR.
You take that $400.00 guitar, and make if out of the same wood as the high end guitar, and duplicate the structure, that is not high end engineering to copy, and that Chinese factory could produce the same guitar for UNDER $1,000.00.
So in reality, do you want a great sounding guitar, or a high priced headstock logo ?

Ed

Very much agree with most of this.

I'd preface it by saying--as I always do-- that people should be free to buy and own anything they wish

If someone has 50 guitars all costing upwards of $10,000 and they bring that person joy, then good for them and I am sincerely happy for them. I also very much enjoy looking at luthier-built works of art.

I've also been playing long enough and have played/owned enough nice guitars to be able to tell/appreciate the differences in build and construction, new vs. vintage, different woods for soundboard and back & sides, solid wood vs. laminate, etc.

But I no longer have the skill (health issues including arthritis and tremors) or bank account to either justify or afford high-end, top shelf instruments.

Also, after losing everything I owned (including some wonderful, valuable music gear) to theft and flood, I acquired a bit of PTSD regarding owning things that were so delicate or costly that I had to worry about them.

Again, I am so happy for people who are able to, and are so inclined, having beautiful, amazing, heirloom-quality guitars made lovingly by hand of the finest materials by true craftspeople.

I am 100% overjoyed that they exist and that there are builders who can create such artful instruments. I would hate to live in a world where all that was gone in favor of mass-manufactured product.

That said, I seriously doubt I'd ever spend more than $500 on any instrument ever again. Nor do I desire to own more than 3 guitars, and if I did, they'd be wildly different, such as a steel 6 string, a nylon string and a 12'er or maybe something set up for slide/alt tunings like a cheap reso.

Beyond that, I don't wish to be concerned with worrying about seeing after a collection of expensive solid wood guitars whenever there is a change in temperature or humidity. I don't want to have to tend to hygrometers, tons of string changes, general maintenance... I happily leave that in the hands of others.

I once owned over 20 electric and acoustic guitars as well as a fleet of electric basses, a few vintage analog synths and a metric ton of amps, cables, effects pedals, recording equipment, etc. It soon became much more of a chore than a pleasure. Again, that's just me.

So yes, I now play only "beaters" or "campfire guitars." By willful design I am only really interested in cheaper laminate guitars. Take anywhere, play anywhere and no real worries. Just play the heck out of them.

Truth be told, if I had the means I WOULD love to own another vintage Gibson J45 or another all-hog small Martin. I do have some other "dream guitars" like a vintage Zemaitis...a Lowden...maybe a Santa Cruz.

But I'm content knowing those types of guitars are in the world and in the hands of more capable players who can more easily afford them.

As the person I quoted indicated, these days you actually have to work hard looking for a guitar that is truly unplayable junk, even in the sub-$200 range. That wasn't the case 25 years and more ago.

I've played plenty of inexpensive laminates--steel and nylon both--that hold their own against guitars costing 5-10 times and up more.

To me, for my needs and current abilities, the nuances of tone that may result from paying orders of magnitude higher prices, then factoring in the more fussy and delicate nature of them, just makes them inherently less desirable to me than a cheap but decent and playable knockaround.

Fortunately, the vast majority of any potential audience isn't going to know or care what guitar I am playing...what it's made of, what it cost, the brand name, etc.

[LeftIsRight!]

This is yet another great example of how subjective this whole thing with guitars and tonewoods really is. Whatever sounds good to your ears is always the ultimate rule.

[Aaron Smith]

I've owned my Voyage Air OM4 for three or four years now. Because it's convenient, cheap, and tough, I have found myself using it quite often. In fact, in addition to being my #1 travel guitar, it has also become my #1 gigging guitar, #1 campfire guitar, etc.

I have decided that it is a great sounding and playing instrument. Not "great for the price", or "great for a laminate back/sides", but just plain great. I can't honestly say that my high dollar guitars sound objectively better. I still love them, but they give away nothing to the Voyage Air.

Granted- of the 1,000 or so guitars I've played at the sub-$500 price point, this is the only one I would say that about. Still, it is possible.

[Edgar Poe]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

I understand the sentiment but I’m not sure I totally agree. I am blown away by some of the less expensive imports that I have played. There are some really nice import guitars that play and sound great. However, though I don’t own a one-off custom built guitar (costing in excess of $5000) I have played a fair share of them. As good as the less expensive guitars may be, they did not sound, feel, and look as good as the Luthier built guitars that I have played. That does not mean the import builders could not do as good as a job for less, but i have not played a sub $1000 guitar that riveled any luthier built guitars I have played. With that said there are some sub $3000 and perhaps sub $2000 imports that can reach that level of craftsman ship you are refereeing to.

But as to the OP’s point, for any givien application, the “beater” might be a better choice and can do justice to the player, more than an expensive guitar.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
I feel the Chinese factories, could duplicate exactly, any high end guitar made in the world, using the same materials, and exactly copy the construction, and be able to sell it for under $1,000.00. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. Their are NO hidden luthier tricks that can not be duplicated, and in all reality be accomplished at a fraction of the cost of high end guitars.

Ed

[Watt]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
I feel the Chinese factories, could duplicate exactly, any high end guitar made in the world, using the same materials, and exactly copy the construction, and be able to sell it for under $1,000.00. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. Their are NO hidden luthier tricks that can not be duplicated, and in all reality be accomplished at a fraction of the cost of high end guitars.

Ed

I suppose it's comforting to have strong beliefs. Reality can be harsh.

[s2y]

I like how a few users can determine what guitars are worth. Nobody admits it, but somehow outplaying someone with a nicer guitar is like winning a battle.

[ripdotcom]

Originally Posted by nkatsonis

I suppose it's comforting to have strong beliefs. Reality can be harsh.

I bought my son a Recording King Schoenberg RP2-626C that would take a Martin counterpart in the 2K+ range (Used) to compete with. I realize that individuals still believe in magic and alchemy, I know that there are those who would never believe that something that has been done, can be done again, I know there are those that fear that when the old luthiers pass on that the knowledge will go with them and nothing old can be learned. My point of course is that it already exists and if you do not believe it , then perhaps you simply have not yet experienced it. I love the fact that there are superb guitars in the sub $500 range (USED) with solid (Quality) woods, scalloped bracing, vintage appointments. This is Eric Schoenbergs design, the instructions were followed and a set of wonderful guitars were made. Consider that this is not the case on all recording king guitars, this is a specific set of models modeled after a superior design. Where this stands out from regular run of the mill (as it were) models, is that the designer, the builder, luther is present, he is sharing his ideas, talent and knowledge , he is teaching someone else how to build a guitar like he builds a guitar. Anyway, we are certainly seeing a much better assortment of low cost alternatives to high end guitars than we ever have, but I think for the most part, getting back to the OP, beaters typically arent going to sound like a high end guitar 99.9% of the time, there are beaters that sound unique and some sound better than the should but many simply were not built to compete with higher end guitars so by design its quite impossible.

[Watt]

Originally Posted by ripdotcom

I bought my son a Recording King Schoenberg RP2-626C that would take a Martin counterpart in the 2K+ range (Used) to compete with. I realize that individuals still believe in magic and alchemy, I know that there are those who would never believe that something that has been done, can be done again, I know there are those that fear that when the old luthiers pass on that the knowledge will go with them and nothing old can be learned. My point of course is that it already exists and if you do not believe it , then perhaps you simply have not yet experienced it. I love the fact that there are superb guitars in the sub $500 range (USED) with solid (Quality) woods, scalloped bracing, vintage appointments. This is Eric Schoenbergs design, the instructions were followed and a set of wonderful guitars were made. Consider that this is not the case on all recording king guitars, this is a specific set of models modeled after a superior design. Where this stands out from regular run of the mill (as it were) models, is that the designer, the builder, luther is present, he is sharing his ideas, talent and knowledge , he is teaching someone else how to build a guitar like he builds a guitar. Anyway, we are certainly seeing a much better assortment of low cost alternatives to high end guitars than we ever have, but I think for the most part, getting back to the OP, beaters typically arent going to sound like a high end guitar 99.9% of the time, there are beaters that sound unique and some sound better than the should but many simply were not built to compete with higher end guitars so by design its quite impossible.

Magic and alchemy? Give me a break. I suggested nothing of the sort. What I would suggest, however, is that a luthier's skills and experience matter. And the notion that a factory, wherever located, could churn out virtual duplicates of hand-built guitars for $1,000 is, I'm sorry, utter nonsense.

This is not to disparage the overall quality of imported instruments, which seems to be better than ever. Although my personal experience with a Recording King RP3 does not align with yours, I have owned and played a number of wonderful guitars built in China and other Asian countries.

As for the OP, if I recall correctly we don't know what his friend's guitar was. If it was a Kenny Hill or even a Cordoba, I'd tend to think that most of us would prefer that to the OP's laminate guitar. But I've played some student model solid wood classicals that could easily be bested by a good laminate guitar.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
I feel the Chinese factories, could duplicate exactly, any high end guitar made in the world, using the same materials, and exactly copy the construction, and be able to sell it for under $1,000.00. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. Their are NO hidden luthier tricks that can not be duplicated, and in all reality be accomplished at a fraction of the cost of high end guitars.

Ed

I hear you but still not sure I agree. I’ll pose this question to you, if they could consistently build such a guitar and sell it for $1000, and still make a profit, why are there non on the market? perhaps there are, but I have not had the pleasure of playing any such guitars, yet. Have you?

[ylekot]

A true hand made guitar takes 100 plus hours to make and then add the shop/material/tool cost....how much do you make an hour? Is a luthier not worth that much?

I cannot afford a custom guitar, or even a "good" one but I sure as hell know the difference.....

If you don't or cant see/hear/feel it good for you....don't buy one.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
I feel the Chinese factories, could duplicate exactly, any high end guitar made in the world, using the same materials, and exactly copy the construction, and be able to sell it for under $1,000.00. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. Their are NO hidden luthier tricks that can not be duplicated, and in all reality be accomplished at a fraction of the cost of high end guitars.

Ed

To many there's little difference between a chuck steak and a rib-eye.

[ripdotcom]

I think perhaps we have gone out of the realm of reason, I think it went off the rails. I was not talking about comparing it with $5K custom shop guitar, I was speaking about what has already been accomplished with the schoenberg models and how an expert can help faciltate a particual build overseas and come up with a guitar that would compare with something 2 to 3 times its cost by a manufacturer like martin. I think the variable went too wonky and face it, nobody every really wants to get the point, otherwise there would be nothing more to say. I should have known better. So for the record, I was and still am referring to the recreation of a standard model, not a custom shop that somemone spent 100+ hours on, I am speaking of perhaps a OM or 000-18 or 000-28 or a different sized counterpart of either model and of course something that has already been mass produced through the manufacturing processes. . My point was and still is that essentially, it has already been done and those who dont believe it just havent experienced it. I hope they get the chance to. I just cant sit and argue about a point that I was not trying to make. Thank you.

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by ripdotcom

I think perhaps we have gone out of the realm of reason, I think it went off the rails. I was not talking about comparing it with $5K custom shop guitar, I was speaking about what has already been accomplished with the schoenberg models and how an expert can help faciltate a particual build overseas and come up with a guitar that would compare with something 2 to 3 times its cost by a manufacturer like martin. I think the variable went too wonky and face it, nobody every really wants to get the point, otherwise there would be nothing more to say. I should have known better. So for the record, I was and still am referring to the recreation of a standard model, not a custom shop that somemone spent 100+ hours on, I am speaking of perhaps a OM or 000-18 or 000-28 or a different sized counterpart of either model and of course something that has already been mass produced through the manufacturing processes. . My point was and still is that essentially, it has already been done and those who dont believe it just havent experienced it. I hope they get the chance to. I just cant sit and argue about a point that I was not trying to make. Thank you.

I get your point and it's well argued. You take it a little further than I'm willing to go, but I get it.

I've played quite a few guitars over the past 55 years and I've got a pretty good set of ears. I recently played an Eastman for $1,200 that really impressed me. I think it was worth quite a few hundred more. It's the only Eastman I've played, so I can't say if it was a fine example or if they all play that well. It was about the size of my Martin. It could not replace my Martin - it was a great guitar for the money, but it was no Martin.

I do appreciate the ability to copy someone's design, but there is some artistry in hand-shaping tops and hand-carving braces. If they could mass produce them with machines to the same quality they certainly would.

I believe I counted 11 Martins in your signature (and no Chinese copies). Your argument will no doubt be stronger later in the year when you have replaced half those Martins.