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  #31  
Old 07-27-2018, 11:27 AM
Truckjohn Truckjohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryunker View Post
The guitar just played icky. Extreme my high action, dead sounding no matter what I did.

I was ready to part ways. After the PLEK, the notes every where are brilliant clear and crisp. It's like playing one of my electric solid body guitars. Dude said many high frets along the way on the bass side. Nut and saddle needed attention as well. I get it that a skilled repair guy could have made vast improvements, but likely more cash out of pocket. Music Gallery in Highland park, Il I found the best of both worlds. Skilled Luthier working the computer controlled PLEK, followed up by a twenty year experienced tech. $250 out the door. Sucks the cash out of my wallet, but resulted in a guitar I will never part with.
Glad to hear you got it sorted out and that it plays well now. Honestly - it's worth paying for a job well done. Good work costs money... And while lots of folks here apparently bat 100% with luthiers - I don't. The last fantastic luthier I had got wrecked by the recession and took a factory job making 3x what he made as a Luthier - and working less than half the hours... My recent tries with local guys here have not gone well...

It's pretty funny how everybody screams at the mention of a Plek.... And yet if you had left that part out - everybody would have been cheering and singing kumbaya... So take that with a grain of salt...
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  #32  
Old 07-27-2018, 02:00 PM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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I'll note the interview in the most recent Fretboard Journal with TJ Thompson, probably the most respected Martin luthier on the planet, wherein he says he now uses a PLEK machine on the guitars he repairs. It's a tool. It's a tool like any other tool, the successful use of which is in the hands of the craftsman who operates it.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can duplicate the work of a PLEK machine in the hands of a highly skilled operator with your hand tools, you should charge the same price for that work as the PLEK shop does. Because you are worth it....

Brian
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  #33  
Old 07-27-2018, 07:10 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Originally Posted by MC5C View Post
As far as I'm concerned, if you can duplicate the work of a PLEK machine in the hands of a highly skilled operator with your hand tools, you should charge the same price for that work as the PLEK shop does. Because you are worth it....

Brian
A luthier charges a fair cost based on an hrly rate, a plek operator charges for the cost of the machine, the cost of the machine is based around the promotional overheads and player endorsements.

Placing a Guitar on cradle, closing a door and pressing the go button, restringing the Guitar adjusting the truss rods and pressing the go button again does not equate to charging 2.5 times what a person charges that dedicates the physical time and attention and work on your guitar.

My penny’s worth.

Steve
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  #34  
Old 07-27-2018, 07:43 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
Placing a Guitar on cradle, closing a door and pressing the go button, restringing the Guitar adjusting the truss rods and pressing the go button again does not equate to charging 2.5 times what a person charges that dedicates the physical time and attention and work on your guitar.
Whoa! You really don’t have a clue about what a PLEK is or how it works, do you?

If you have a really good tech, and you are happy with them, by all means, don’t even look into alternatives. But if you don’t, and you have access to a shop that has a PLEK and really knows how to use it, you should consider it some time. Its not like you need to get it done every 2 years (or every 10,000 tunes, whichever comes first - )
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  #35  
Old 07-27-2018, 08:06 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Originally Posted by tadol View Post
Whoa! You really don’t have a clue about what a PLEK is or how it works, do you?
Such statements will get a response. Yes I know pleks very well, yes I have even used one, the company that sells the plek machine has even been in negotiation with me in the past to try and encourage me to buy one from them.

The plek machine is a computer based scanning device with a digitising probe that inputs information into the computer on a customised program. it simply reflects the scan of the guitar, I also have manufacturers manual, scan manuals as well from their sales pitch to me.

A unethical operator can set the truss rod on a guitar to make it look poor, and then scan that guitar and say here is proof your guitar is bad and needs 500 dollars spent on it.

It can also fret level and do a brilliant job as well, but, it is just a computer scanner / leveller. It is a 150,000 dollar machine which replicates the human hand and eye for those people who are incapable of doing this most basic skill. If you are a business that has such volume of work that you cannot keep on top of it, then that may be another justification IMO to buy one, example end of the gibson assembly line or any other manufacturing plant.

Guitars need setting up when they need setting up, either be enviromental reasons, wood settling reasons, damage reasons, having aguitar plek setup does not mean you wont need another setup again for 2-3 years, you simply paid a premium price usually 2.5 times other peoples prices, for the privelege of saying, Dude I had my guitar plek'd, which is purely good marketing by the business itself that manufactured the machine



Steve
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Last edited by mirwa; 07-27-2018 at 08:18 PM.
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  #36  
Old 07-27-2018, 09:32 PM
D. Churchland D. Churchland is offline
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Originally Posted by tadol View Post
Whoa! You really don’t have a clue about what a PLEK is or how it works, do you?

If you have a really good tech, and you are happy with them, by all means, don’t even look into alternatives. But if you don’t, and you have access to a shop that has a PLEK and really knows how to use it, you should consider it some time. Its not like you need to get it done every 2 years (or every 10,000 tunes, whichever comes first - )
Easy bruh...

Like Steve said, the machines have their place. There's a reason that manufacturing went to CNC over Bridgeports the moment it became profitable.

If you're making 100 guitars a day it makes way more sense to have a machine do the work that you'd have to pay several shop monkeys to do. It just makes sense.

The issue I find in my work is that most of the time people do not need a flat neck. They read on places like the AGF that a perfect flat neck is a good thing. It also makes sense from a basic thought pattern that flat is better than bowed. A tiny bit of relief is beneficial and will drastically affect the way the guitar sounds.

If you make a cello or violin fingerboard for example perfectly flat you will have an unplayable instrument. You need to scoop the neck (drastically) in order to get a clear no-fuzzballs tone.
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  #37  
Old 07-27-2018, 11:17 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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The post indicated that his impression of the machine was an overpriced piece of hype, where any idiot simply slaps a guitar in, close the door and push a button, twice, and rip people off, or, to quote

“the cost of the machine is based around the promotional overheads and player endorsements.
Placing a Guitar on cradle, closing a door and pressing the go button, restringing the Guitar adjusting the truss rods and pressing the go button again does not equate to charging 2.5 times what a person charges”

I’m not a huge fan of computer controlled equipment, but I do know that like any tool, an intelligent, dedicated, and properly trained operator makes a huge difference in the results acheived, and that the value and capabilities of the PLEK are not particularly well presented in that statement - nor the reality of a highly skilled luthier suffering from repetitive stress problems from doing hundreds of set-ups over their career - and I don’t thnk anyone hires shop monkeys to do their final set-ups and adjustments -

And while minor tweaks and low cost adjustments may be in order every year or two (or longer) depending on playing style and use and quality of original materials and build, a good PLEK job shouldn’t need to be redone for many years - or at least until other substantial work needs to be done -

But I don’t want to argue about it - if you really want to believe its just overhyped and overpriced junk, and handing your guitar to any old shop monkey will get you just as playable an instrument for far less money - go for it -
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  #38  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:10 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadol View Post
The post indicated that his impression of the machine was an overpriced piece of hype, where any idiot simply slaps a guitar in, close the door and push a button, twice, and rip people off, or, to quote
You have missed my point, certainly the slant on your reply is not the direction I was talking about.
First, My comment, no one saids or infers it does a poor job.
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
It can also fret level and do a brilliant job as well, but,
My point
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
you simply paid a premium price usually 2.5 times other peoples prices, for the privelege of saying, Dude I had my guitar plek'd
For comparison
I can buy cnc made fender strat copy guitar for $35usd, cnc made infers 80 plus perecnt of the job was done by a computer, a hand made electric guitar by a luthier would be impossible to buy for under 500 usd. So the computer job was cheaper.
I can buy a cnc made acoustic guitar bridge for 6 dollars usd, no where could you find a hand made bridge by a luthier for under 40 dollars usd.
I can have a complex part made by any cnc company and it will easily be 1/5 the value of something made by a machinist who does it by hand.
I personally cnc make replacement guitar bridges for manufacturers and distributors, example I made a gibson one of recent for distributor, I charged 45 dollars for cnc bridge, when I hand make a bridge I charge 90 dollars
For fender a few months back I made a replacement pickguard for a custom guitar as the manufacturer made this a once of model, I cnc made the pickguard for 90 dollars, If I hand made that pickguard it would have cost them 175.
The point, when something in society is generally made or done by a cnc, its easily 1/3 the normal price of being done by hand.
The plek machine, the job is done at 2.5 times the rate done by human hands, so it is in complete reverse, why....... now back to my statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
A luthier charges a fair cost based on an hrly rate, a plek operator charges for the cost of the machine, the cost of the machine is based around the promotional overheads and player endorsements.
I have around 1.5 million dollars worth of tooling and machines, amongst this I have 7 cnc machines, I do not have a plek machine because I can achieve by hand what it does with no issues as most competent luthiers could do as well, also the business model the company tried to sell me with up pricing I was not okay with, as IMO as indicate above, if 80 plus percent of the work on the job is done by a machine then it should be 1/3 the price done by a person who does it by hand not 2.5 times dearer.

Steve
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Last edited by mirwa; 07-29-2018 at 08:05 PM.
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