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The Vintage - Modern Tone Spectrum
Greetings AGF Faithful,
I’m hoping you will join me in an unscientific, subjective experiment by helping to put together a spectrum from Vintage to Modern tone by builder. For fun, let’s limit it to OM/000/GC body size/shape. I understand that we’re already running into problems characterizing tone as “modern,” for example, because it is personal and subjective. But, for the sake of argument, someone might place Martin OM’s way down on the vintage end of the spectrum, and Taylor GC’s far to the modern end. Where would, for example, Huss & Dalton, Collings, Bourgeois, Santa Cruz, etc. fall? Any other builders you’d include? Feel free to add qualifiers and descriptors (big bass response, refined, etc.) and explain why you’re placing each where you are. I know there is a wealth of experience with a wide variety of instruments here, so I’m very curious to hear about them. Thanks and enjoy! |
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#3
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#4
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Well you leave out some very well known guitars with that spread. I would place Gibson further to the left of Martin and the European builders like Lowden to the left of Taylor, or maybe to the right depending on how you look at it. So my thinking is Gibson is more bassy than Martin and has less overtones. Then you go to the right with more overtone content and brightr which to me is the modern sound.
Taylor is modern in a different way with fewer overtones but brighter in general. So maybe its not a linear graph but a v shaped plot starting with Stella's up to Lowden and from Stella's down to Taylor |
#5
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What do you mean with "vintage"? This can be 1) a guitar built at a certain time period/year that has seen little use and was well preserved by a collector 2) a new guitar that is built to specifications and using methods/tools of a certain period/year 3) an old and used guitar of specified brand.
I would assume that there is a huge range of tone spectrum just between guitars of these three definitions or even within one of the definitions. So the question should be where as a group they are distinct enough to separate them from more "modern" designs. And yeah where do you draw the line between "modern" and "vintage" - and specific decade from 30s to 80s could be applied. |
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...I get the gist of the thread...and from experience owning and playing a fair number of both vintage and new instruments I think understand the differences you are referencing...for me the difficulty of making an accurate assessment lies in the fact that you are comparing dozens of modern builders to basically two companies...Martin and Gibson....
....suffice it to say that the closer a modern day builder emulates and reproduces vintage guitars... the closer in vintage tone they will likely be...the further they stray from those designs the more likely they will produce instruments with the modern or at least different tone... ...I personally find that vintage voiced instruments agree more with the styles that I play so I gravitate towards them....the more modern sounding instruments that I have owned have been the most likely to be moved along for that reason... ...I hesitate to name specific builders because many modern builders can and do roll either way...with some notable exceptions that others will almost certainly point out...that said I will try to play along....these are the builders I have direct experience with... Vintage: Martin Gibson Santa Cruz Bourgeois Modern: Breedlove Taylor Larivee Lowden straddling the line: Collings Huss&Dalton ....as I mentioned above...many companies roll both ways and I think most of my picks do... to varying degrees... Last edited by J Patrick; 01-22-2019 at 03:18 PM. |
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Another interesting thing is that in the 00's and teens, very few professional players seemed to be playing Matrin's. At least not professional players from New York, where a lot of this literature comes from. During that era, they were predominantly playing smaller luthier builds from the many Italian makers in New York City. These makers are often called the Italian Guild by current collectors. They were also advertised as having a "modern" sound. |
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Rather than ascribe modernity according to brand, I would go with bracing, as follows:
Vintage = ladder bracing Modern = X bracing (with forward-shifted X bracing being a bit more modern.) Postmodern = V bracing
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1 dreadnought, 1 auditorium, 1 concert, and 2 travel guitars. |
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Here is how I hear them:
- Martin (dark timbre, bass biased, midrange scooped) - - Goodall TR (Traditional series) (vintage voice, slight mid scoop, very strong bass and great sustain, super resonant, loud. Think 70% Martin, 20% Gibson, 10% Collings) - Santa Cruz (vintage voice, strong but not booming bass, midrange enhanced, tons of harmonic nuance. Think 70% Martin, 30% Gibson) - Bourgeois (vintage voice, more midrange than Martin, puts out exactly what you put into it) - - Huss & Dalton (Bass timbre of Martin with Collings mids and highs. Think 60% Martin, 40% Collings) - - Collings (Cutting, in-your-face-all-the-time clarity, massive volume, tight quick bass (OMs don't have enough IMO), plays like a coiled spring and outputs 125% of what you put into it) - Webber (A slightly mellower Collings with similar mids and highs) - - Taylor
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Merrill | Martin | Collings | Gibson For Sale: 2023 Collings D2H 1 3/4 Nut, Adi Bracing, NTB -- $4100 shipped Last edited by brencat; 01-22-2019 at 11:13 AM. |
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Wow, what a question! Do we mean 'vintage' as in an old guitar today, or how the thing may have sounded when new? If it's the latter we can have no idea-especially on a guitar up to a century old.
If it's the former that's going to depend hugely on environmental factors influencing the wood over many years. F'rinstance, can we say that the same brand of 000 that lived it's whole life in a predominantly humid climate, will have matured in the same way as one brought up in the Nevadan desert? Within those two examples I would guess we already have quite a wide tonal spectrum. The 'modern' tonality we hear in more projecting brightness and higher mids is surely something we could also hear in a vintage instrument... Ok, that's my bit. Can I just watch now? |
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See, this is why I love AGF. This thread is already delivering!
Okay, I can already tell I won't be able to keep up with it, which is a good thing! But, before I get too far behind, I'll address some specific comments with a mega post: Quote:
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I’m going to endorse this assessment! I think this has nailed it across the board and done it quite well. Of course it’s all subjective but this mirrors how I hear these instrumentss.
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McCollum Grand Auditorum Euro Spruce/Brazilian PRS Hollowbody Spruce PRS SC58 Giffin Vikta Gibson Custom Shop ES 335 '59 Historic RI ‘91 Les Paul Standard ‘52 AVRI Tele - Richie Baxt build Fender American Deluxe Tele Fender Fat Strat |
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Good to hear - thanks for chiming in! I’m anxious to try a Goodall TROM - I have a feeling I’ll be a huge fan.
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Tags |
bourgeios, collings, huss & dalton, martin, santa cruz |
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