F-Chord & Arpeggiating

[DHosinski]

Hello: I'm making what I figure is decent progress. Its been about 3 weeks now and I'm working on the chord switching. I've learned D, E, Am, Dm, & Em on the Justin Guitar App. I switch between that and the TrueFire site and work through the exercises.
So, right now on the TrueFire site, I've gotten to the arpeggiating part and I have an exercise where we are playing (arpeggiating) Am, C, D, F (GRRRRR), Am, Em, Am, Em. As you can see I'm failing miserably at the 'F' chord. I cannot bar the 1 & 2 strings in the first fret. If I do get that, then I am fat fingering the 3rd (fret 2)and 4th(fret3) strings. I don't want to get frustrated, so I do it for a bit and then practice something else.
Does anyone have a recommendation that I can try to get my hands into position better? Should I take my guitar in to have someone look to see if my frets should be adjusted?

Thank you

[rllink]

I'm getting reacquainted with the guitar myself, after an almost fifty year hiatus. First of all I found it easier to bar the whole first fret them move the E chord over one, than to just to bar the two bottom strings. I know that is supposed to be harder, but it isn't for me. It also has a fuller sound to my ear, so win win. But either way, you can bar three or four of those strings, not just two, if it puts your hand in a better position. One trick I learned, I started out with just the bar. I played it until I got it clean. Then I added the chord in front of it.

Breaking things down and concentrating on just one part at a time works better for me than just going after the whole thing at once, regardless of what it is. So whichever way you want to play it, go after the bar first and get it under control. Then the rest without the bar, then put it all together. Hope that works for you.

[MThomson]

It's definitely one of the harder things to do at the start. I would expect the answer to be in technique and not guitar setup (although a well set up guitar makes most things a bit easier). One of the things that can help a lot is playing about with the left hand thumb position. I found mine works best when not up over the top of the neck and in line with my middle finger. See what works for you.

And don't beat yourself up, you're doing the right thing with your practice and it will come as your hand strength builds up and technique improves.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by DHosinski

Hello: I'm making what I figure is decent progress. Its been about 3 weeks now and I'm working on the chord switching. I've learned D, E, Am, Dm, & Em on the Justin Guitar App. I switch between that and the TrueFire site and work through the exercises.
So, right now on the TrueFire site, I've gotten to the arpeggiating part and I have an exercise where we are playing (arpeggiating) Am, C, D, F (GRRRRR), Am, Em, Am, Em. As you can see I'm failing miserably at the 'F' chord. I cannot bar the 1 & 2 strings in the first fret. If I do get that, then I am fat fingering the 3rd (fret 2)and 4th(fret3) strings. I don't want to get frustrated, so I do it for a bit and then practice something else.
Does anyone have a recommendation that I can try to get my hands into position better? Should I take my guitar in to have someone look to see if my frets should be adjusted?

Thank you

Hi Dh

How about just fretting the 5th string (A) with the first finger at the 8th fret, and then use your ring finger to cover strings 2-3-4 at the 10th fret? The arpeggio is just the inside 4 strings (no 1st nor 6th strings).

Sounds the same notes as…

1
1
2
3
X
X

This is a valuable inside barre chord, and an easy way to mover from the I chord to a IV chord in any key. If you use a standard major chord barre chord on the third fret (G chord) and then play the inside barre I suggested it will be the C chord (which is the IV). Slide it up two frets and it's the D chord (V).

Fret the C barre at the 8th fret, then the inside major barre at the 8th is the F chord.

[Riverwolf]

Don't worry, it will eventually come.
Despite all the great advice here, and hours and hours of practice...
It was almost into year five before I could play that F with consistency.
I substituted the Fmaj7 chord for years.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by DHosinski

Hello: I'm making what I figure is decent progress. Its been about 3 weeks now and I'm working on the chord switching. I've learned D, E, Am, Dm, & Em on the Justin Guitar App. I switch between that and the TrueFire site and work through the exercises.
So, right now on the TrueFire site, I've gotten to the arpeggiating part and I have an exercise where we are playing (arpeggiating) Am, C, D, F (GRRRRR), Am, Em, Am, Em. As you can see I'm failing miserably at the 'F' chord. I cannot bar the 1 & 2 strings in the first fret. If I do get that, then I am fat fingering the 3rd (fret 2)and 4th(fret3) strings. I don't want to get frustrated, so I do it for a bit and then practice something else.
Does anyone have a recommendation that I can try to get my hands into position better? Should I take my guitar in to have someone look to see if my frets should be adjusted?

Thank you

The F chord is tough for everyone at the beginning.

I doubt your frets need adjusting, but getting a set-up (if you havent already) is always recommended.

Otherwise, it's just a matter of working on that barre (index all the way, yes?).

My tip is to use the bony underside of the first joint of your index to hold down the 1st and 2nd strings, as shown here. Pinch the neck between your thumb and that part of your index (not the rest of the finger). if you can get that working, then all you need to do is drop the tip of the finger on to the 6th string. You don't need to get the other strings down, because they'll be under your other fingers. Get the index right up behind the fret too.


But still, there's no magic here, no short cut. Make sure your action is good (nut height perfect), and it just takes time to train your hand to learn the optimum pressure required. Your hand will learn it. The actual pressure required is not very much, but it's a complex distribution of forces, and is not something you can apply consciously. Repetition will train your hand to organise it automatically.

BTW, before getting a set-up, the way to check if your nut is too high is to put a capo on fret 1. Then try this shape on fret 2 (or try playing anything). If the guitar feels noticeably easier with a capo on, then your nut is too high. Get a set-up done! If it feels about the same (just as hard) - bad luck! You could try lighter strings...

[Riverwolf]

Originally Posted by JonPR

The F chord is tough for everyone at the beginning.

Otherwise, it's just a matter of working on that barre (index all the way, yes?).

Great advice as always, except at 3 weeks, pretty sure he's talking about the "little" F chord.

Sometimes ones hands simply will not make a certain shape.

Fmaj7 can be a "temporary" workaround.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Riverwolf

Great advice as always, except at 3 weeks, pretty sure he's talking about the "little" F chord.

In that case, assuming you mean 4 strings only, and the barre on B-E is difficult (which it is!), I'd recommend separate fingers:

-1- middle
-1- index
-2- ring
-3- pinky
---
---

But this is a pretty useless shape anyway, I really don't know why guitar books recommend it. When it comes to strumming the chord, how are you supposed to mute both the bass strings?

The "lazy F" that I recommend to my beginners - and I don't give them the F chord for several weeks, 3 weeks is way too soon! - is this one:

-x- mute with index
-1- index
-2- middle
-3- pinky
-3- ring
-x- mute with thumb

Naturally that's tricky for small hands on a classical guitar, but a comfortable enough hand shape for average hands on a steel string.

It has two great advantages: (1) you can strum it; (2) it makes changing to and from a C chord (F's most common companion) straightforward.
Also, you can begin to train your thumb to actually fret the 6th if you want the bass root (fret 1 obviously). You might even work up to fretting both 2nd and 1st with the index.

Eventually, of course, one needs to learn the "big F" (full barre), but this is perfectly good substitute for strumming chord sequences. You see Neil Young using the "lazy F" here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOv9nwuC67Y
(close up at 0:41)

Originally Posted by Riverwolf

Fmaj7 can be a "temporary" workaround.

Sometimes, yes, but it's important to be aware of the different sound. Fmaj7 won't always substitute for F.

[zztush]

This may be easier and easier to switch to and from C.

-x- mute with index
-1- index
-2- middle
-3- ring
-0- open
-x- mute with thumb

The tip for short barre of the 1st and 2nd string and lazy F is attaching palm (see the photo below). It looks poor technique but pros do it.

[DHosinski]

Hello and thank you all. I will try each of these and see what feels most comfortable, and if they make playing the chord easier. The exercise I'm working on has us playing all 6 strings, and strumming them in the following order. Strings 6-5-4 strumming down, and strings 1-2-3 strum up. This probably doesn't happen too often in many songs. I'm not going to get too hung up on the F chord (LOL) if I can hit most or all of the others.
I thought this was a little advanced just being in the second beginner lesson on TrueFire. I haven't even gotten to the 'F' chord in the Justin Guitar app yet. That should probably tell me something. I'm really looking forward to learning how to piece together some music.
"JonPR" I'm going to try the capo trick to see if the "nut" is too high. I'm really open to suggestions like this, especially early in my learning.

Thanks again

[The Bard Rocks]

The forefinger barre gives the cleanest note when you are learning. But I find barring the 2 unwound strings with the forefinger is preferred for my own playing as you can move to other chords easier from there. After you get this down, you can use a thumb wrap for the low F and be able to use all 6 strings. that's a better-sounding, fuller chord.

But any of these can work. I use them all at different times. It's been a long while since I started, but I remember F being one of the hardest, then one day, it wasn't so hard after all. B7 was worse and took longer to master

[DHosinski]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

The forefinger barre gives the cleanest note when you are learning. But I find barring the 2 unwound strings with the forefinger is preferred for my own playing as you can move to other chords easier from there. After you get this down, you can use a thumb wrap for the low F and be able to use all 6 strings. that's a better-sounding, fuller chord.

But any of these can work. I use them all at different times. It's been a long while since I started, but I remember F being one of the hardest, then one day, it wasn't so hard after all. B7 was worse and took longer to master

I’m starting to get it down. I’ve been so obsessed with the arpeggiating thing that I felt like other things were slipping away. So, I went to the Justin Guitar app and started playing as many songs as I can, fast or slow. It was a good idea. I’m trying to figure out different strumming patterns depending on the music. I’m really earnest in learning. I see other things that I want to do now, but I know they have to wait.

[tbeltrans]

There is also some merit to the posted suggestion about a guitar set up. I typically find that on the acoustic guitars I have, getting the nut slots filed just a little bit goes a long way to easier barre'ing of strings at the first fret.

I would caution that this should be done by an experienced luthier/tech because just a little bit goes a LONG way and it is all too easy to overdo it and then you have terrible string buzz.

This suggestion is not a replacement for all the fingering suggestions, but instead something to keep in the back of your mind if trying these fingering ideas is still too difficult with a reasonable amount of practice time and effort.

By the way, I have gotten warnings a couple of times from a moderator about "disguised swearing". If they aren't playing favorites, I suspect some in this thread might get such warnings too.

Tony

[DHosinski]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

There is also some merit to the posted suggestion about a guitar set up. I typically find that on the acoustic guitars I have, getting the nut slots filed just a little bit goes a long way to easier barre'ing of strings at the first fret.

I would caution that this should be done by an experienced luthier/tech because just a little bit goes a LONG way and it is all too easy to overdo it and then you have terrible string buzz.

This suggestion is not a replacement for all the fingering suggestions, but instead something to keep in the back of your mind if trying these fingering ideas is still too difficult with a reasonable amount of practice time and effort.

By the way, I have gotten warnings a couple of times from a moderator about "disguised swearing". If they aren't playing favorites, I suspect some in this thread might get such warnings too.

Tony

I've tried to contact one of my local guitar shops (one that I would trust), but they seem to be out due to the pandemic. I'm actually disappointed because they never responded. Maybe I should consider that as bad customer service.
I'll keep looking to see if I can find someone to set up my guitar's.

Thanks

[JimCA]

Originally Posted by JonPR

In that case, assuming you mean 4 strings only, and the barre on B-E is difficult (which it is!), I'd recommend separate fingers:

-1- middle
-1- index
-2- ring
-3- pinky
---
---

But this is a pretty useless shape anyway, I really don't know why guitar books recommend it. When it comes to strumming the chord, how are you supposed to mute both the bass strings?

The "lazy F" that I recommend to my beginners - and I don't give them the F chord for several weeks, 3 weeks is way too soon! - is this one:

-x- mute with index
-1- index
-2- middle
-3- pinky
-3- ring
-x- mute with thumb

Naturally that's tricky for small hands on a classical guitar, but a comfortable enough hand shape for average hands on a steel string.

It has two great advantages: (1) you can strum it; (2) it makes changing to and from a C chord (F's most common companion) straightforward.
Also, you can begin to train your thumb to actually fret the 6th if you want the bass root (fret 1 obviously). You might even work up to fretting both 2nd and 1st with the index.

Eventually, of course, one needs to learn the "big F" (full barre), but this is perfectly good substitute for strumming chord sequences. You see Neil Young using the "lazy F" here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOv9nwuC67Y
(close up at 0:41)

Sometimes, yes, but it's important to be aware of the different sound. Fmaj7 won't always substitute for F.

But Neil’s “lazy F” is Fmaj7 if he strums all the strings.