Dead Spot / Wolf Note on a new Martin D-18

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Prof M

Interesting thread and a good read. I am happy to show my ignorance here but I had not heard of Wolf tones before.

I play mostly fingerpicking and have restrung my D18 with lights and reduced the action by dropping the saddle to better suit my style. I was checking the intonation at the 12th fret (fretted v harmonic) and noticed the fretted 6th string on 12th (or 13th fretted note for that matter) did not ring out so well - still OK but a bit dead - so checking intonation on the 12th was problematic. I assumed it was due to my tinkering and as the guitar plays very well elsewhere I forgot about it and got on with playing.

Then I read this thread and I tried changing to drop D tuning and checked the 12 fret again - clear as a bell now and the 14th fretted note a bit dull. I assume this must be my wolf tone. It seems I am lucky as it certainly is not apparent on the 4th (2nd fret) or 5th (7th fret) strings.

Mike

I've always heard an E-6th-string fretted at the 12th fret as sounding more subdued in loudness and sustain compared to fretting that string at lower frets. It likely has more to do with string length and mass and very little to do with "wolf notes." Just my .02 cents.

[Alan Carruth]

DBW wrote:
"I researched dead spots and read that the string frequency and the fretboard frequency in particular spots can cancel each other out. My instructor said the fretboard was dry and needed lemon oil."

All guitars, solid body or acoustic, can vibrate as a whole, and have resonances that resemble those of xylophone bars at a number of frequencies. Since the neck does flex a fair amount at these pitches these are often called 'neck modes', and I'm assuming that's what you're talking about.

On most steel string acoustics the lowest 'neck' mode is quite a bit lower in pitch than the low E fundamental. It has stationary 'nodes' somewhere around the nut or first fret, and on a line across the lower bout near the bridge. It's 'way too low in pitch for the string to drive directly on steel strings; on classicals it can be high enough to matter, but the driving mechanism is not direct from the string, but rather through the air and top. It doesn't get moving unless the 'main air' pitch is a pretty close match with the 'neck', and when it does it can actually help the low-end sound.

It's possible to find a couple of higher pitched such modes on most guitars if you work at it, but in general they're not anything to worry about. For one thing they tend to happen at fairly different pitches on different guitars. Remember, these are whole-body resonances, so things like the stiffness of the sides and the mass of the tail block can come into play. Too many variables... They're also much weaker than the lowest 'neck' mode, so you would not expect them to have any major effect. Not saying it's not possible, mind you...

On a solid body electric the neck is by far the lightest and most flexible part. It's not too hard to find three pretty active resonances of the whole machine it the range of the fundamentals of the strings. Often enough, in the few times I've looked at this, the bridge is on or near a stationary 'node' line for all of the lower modes, so the strings can't drive them by pushing on the bridge.* If there was a moving 'antinode' of the resonance at a fret that sounded that pitch the string could drive it. You'd notice a drop off in either volume or sustain, and possibly a change in pitch of that note, or even a 'buzz' caused by the two polarizations of the string vibration having different pitches, as happened to my customer. It's just (barely) possible that oiling the fingerboard might alter the pitch of the resonance enough to 'fix' the problem, at least for a while, by adding some mass and damping and possibly reducing the stiffness a bit. I don't have data on this, so take that with a very large helping of salt!

*
Any 'free' vibrating beam, like a xylophone bar or solid body guitar, has a moving 'antinode' at both ends. A string attached to the end can easily drive that. Solid body basses tend to have their bridges close to the bottom end, and I suspect that's one reason they have so much trouble with dead notes.

[SpruceTop]

>>>My acoustic-only testing is done at concert pitch and by fretting each note of the E-6th-string while dampening the other five strings with my fretting and picking hand and while keeping my picking hand's forearm away from the top<<<

[B]Thus far, I hear nothing strange in the tone and volume of the E-6th string from being played open to fretting each fret up to the 12th-fret, and I've also done a similar procedure for the A-5th-string for the following guitars:

2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R with LR Baggs IBeam Active = NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Martin D-18 with UltraTonic 3.2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2020 Martin HD-28 with Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-05 no pickup system = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-40R Sunburst - Schatten HFN Artist 2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Yamaha FG5X with Atmosfeel = NO WOLF NOTES
2019 Taylor 717e Grand Pacific Wild Honeyburst Builder's Edition with ES2 - NO WOLF NOTES

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by thefsb

Don't be listening for wolf notes. That's like being awake in the middle of the night and then reminding yourself to be thinking about insomnia.

Or being an agnostic, dyslexic, insommniac, who lays awake at night and wonders if there really is a Dog.

[Luckymud]

In my experience you can actually see these wolf notes if you watch the string vibrate after you pluck it. The fret above and fret below will usually vibrate more freely and for a longer period of time. The wolf note, in contrast, will vibrate a lot and then die off very quickly. You have to look pretty closely, but once you see it it’s obvious. Some of my guitars do it worse than others, and some don’t do it much at all. But I usually can confirm what I’m hearing by looking up close.

[SpruceTop]

The reason I'm doing the Wolf Note Hunt and publishing my findings is that it takes about two minutes to check a guitar and post the results to my list. I might as well do it so I'll know what I have as I pull each guitar out for a playing session and it only needs to be done once per guitar. Even though it seems silly to some, maybe some players may find it interesting.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I have about a dozen acoustic guitars, including 3 Martins ('67 D-35, 2006 000-28VS, and 2018 D-45).

I have never heard a "wolf note" on any of my guitars in my entire life of almost 60 years of very active guitar playing. I'm predominantly a finger picker. I have no idea what people are referring to with this "wolf note" phenomena.

- Glenn

That's really interesting. I wonder if it's a thing of degrees. I've owned a lot of fairly high end guitars from Collings, Santa Cruz, Martin, Taylor and more. It's not often I have found ones without dead(er) notes somewhere. Collings most often, and often the E string G, which is problematic. They're generally not totally dead, but don't ring out like the other notes across the board. More "somewhat muted" than dead.

My D-28A doesn't have any of it anywhere I can find, and that's one of the things that keeps it in my hands. My Clapton has a couple minor ones higher up the fretboard on E and F. Mild. Seems very common to me.

Originally Posted by Jinder

Square shoulder dreads tend to exhibit it around the low G (third fret on low E string) which can be a real pain for those who want to play Bluegrass runs or country style fingerpicking pieces in the key of G. Slope shoulder dreads often exhibit it around F#, although I’ve had Gibson slopes that have had minor wolf tones at F# and G.

Yes. This.

[SpruceTop]

>>>My acoustic-only testing is done at concert pitch and by fretting each note of the E-6th-string and the A-5th-string while dampening the other five strings with my fretting and picking hand and while keeping my picking hand's forearm away from the top<<<

[B]Thus far, I hear nothing strange in the tone and volume of the E-6th string and A-5th-string from being played open to fretting each fret up to the 12th-fret on the following guitars:

2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R with LR Baggs IBeam Active = NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Martin D-18 with UltraTonic 3.2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2020 Martin HD-28 with Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-05 no pickup system = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-40R Sunburst - Schatten HFN Artist 2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Yamaha FG5X with Atmosfeel = NO WOLF NOTES
2019 Taylor 717e Grand Pacific Wild Honeyburst Builder's Edition with ES2 - NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Taylor 614ce with ES2 (X-Braced) = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 RainSong BI-DR1000N2 Carbon Guitar with LR Baggs Stage Pro Element = NO WOLD NOTES
2022 Enya Nova Go Carbon Travel Guitar no pickup system - NO WOLF NOTES

[b1j]

I think there might be something to this. On my new used HD-28E I was getting body buzz on the E note in three places: Low E12, A7, an D2. (Also a bit less on the F notes one fret up — all three strings.) Besides the buzz, there was a mild thud to the notes — less clarity and sustain.

The tech at Gryphon looked inside and found that one of the wires on the Fishman Aura VT Enhance was touching a side, and he could make it rattle a little. He bent it out of the way and the buzz is now gone.

What does this suggest? To me it suggests that there is a resonance frequency at 80 - 85 Hz where the guitar’s vibration is distorted in some way. The amplitude of the resonance interferes with the pure note; maybe it’s out of phase or disorganized or something. If there’s any merit to this theory, then those will be wolf notes (at current temperature, age, and humidity).

I’ve built in an awareness of those frets, so that now I make an effort to play them in the cleanest way possible with my nails and distance from the bridge. The upshot is that I can manage having three fret locations that hang back on me.

But the best news is that the buzz is gone.

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by Wolfi

It's really not too hard playing two strings with the exact same attack and noticing a big difference in tonal characters of each note. I have to play extra carefully compared to all other strings to not have that wolf note, but then at the same time you'll barely hear the note compared to the other ones. There's no way to let it ring like the other ones, no matter how hard or light your attack is. And yes, while they do have different tonal voices, two D-18 behaved similar or comparable here, it is what it is and was confirmed by the guy in the store.

What did you decide to do about it? Find a different guitar or live with it?

Did you have any success with brass bridge pins to move the resonance to between scale notes?

[SpruceTop]

>>>My acoustic-only testing is done at concert pitch and by fretting each note of the E-6th-string and the A-5th-string while dampening the other five strings with my fretting and picking hand and while keeping my picking hand's forearm away from the top<<<

[B]Thus far, I hear nothing strange in the tone and volume of the E-6th string and A-5th-string from being played open to fretting each fret up to the 12th-fret on the following guitars:

2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R with LR Baggs IBeam Active = NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Martin D-18 with UltraTonic 3.2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2020 Martin HD-28 with Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-05 no pickup system = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-40R Sunburst - Schatten HFN Artist 2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Yamaha FG5X with Atmosfeel = NO WOLF NOTES
2015 Taylor 618e with ES2 (X-Braced) = NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Taylor 614ce with ES2 (X-Braced) = NO WOLF NOTES
2019 Taylor 717e Grand Pacific Wild Honeyburst Builder's Edition with ES2 - NO WOLF NOTES
2020 Adamas 2087GT-8 with Ovation UST = NO WOLF NOTES
2019 Emerald X20 with LR Baggs Element VTC = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 RainSong BI-DR1000N2 Carbon Guitar with LR Baggs Stage Pro Element = NO WOLD NOTES
2022 Enya X4 Pro AcousticPlus with Enya UST/Mic = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Enya Nova Go Carbon Travel Guitar no pickup system - NO WOLF NOTES

This here Wolf Note Hunting is kinda like 'Squatchin, I know they're out there but I ain't heard or seen hide nor hair of any yet.

[Alan Carruth]

It's only a 'wolf' if it's a problem, and since sound is so subjective, that means a problem for you. Different people have varying tolerances for this stuff.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

It's only a 'wolf' if it's a problem, and since sound is so subjective, that means a problem for you. Different people have varying tolerances for this stuff.

Thanks, Alan, I agree, it could be a problem for some players if they hear a note that doesn't sound right amongst others on the guitar. I do hear some notes sounding a bit louder than others as I go along the fretboard, and usually, I hear a bit less volume and sustain as I go up toward the 12th fret on my test guitars but nothing so far as sounding annoyingly diminished in volume or tone on the guitars I've highlighted so far. I need a strong alternating bass for my style and that's one reason I'm checking all my guitars. I think if I heard the OP's guitar I too would find the wolf note he's hearing also annoying.

[marciero]

Norman Blake once said something to the effect of "never trust a guitar without a belly". I wonder if he would say something similar about wolf tones on dreads.

[snissors1971]

When life gives you a guitar with wolf notes, play Bark At The Moon.