holding the guitar seated

[RockyRacc00n]

This seems like such a basic thing, but as I’ve been revisiting my various techniques lately, holding the guitar has come to mind.

When I play at home, I’m mostly on my sofa. I sit slightly slanted so that my back is at about 45 degrees to the back cushion. To give another visual, imagine you are looking down from the ceiling. From this view, you will see my back is at 45 degrees to the back cushion of the sofa.

This angle allows the guitar to come across my lap and the bout to rest on the sofa. With the bout supported by the sofa, I am able to fully rest my strumming arm on the guitar and cradle it with my inner arm for more stability. And this keeps the guitar very secure and the headstock does not waver around as my left hand comes on and off the fretboard.

I describe all this because when I am not on my sofa and I am on a stool where there isn’t a place to rest the bout, then I often find myself shifting around to balance the guitar only on my lap. I am still able to play away from my sofa, but I struggle to find a position where I am able to fully rest my arm and cradle the guitar without feeling it will teeter over and also back around my body due to the arm wanting to drop back into my body. To prevent this, I have to keep my arm lifted, and only partially resting on the guitar which eventually starts to tire my shoulder muscle. And also the headstock wavers around because the guitar isn’t fully cradled.

I hope you can see what I am describing and if you’ve also struggled with this, is there any advice you can give me?



EDIT:



00:19: Casual position. There is more weight towards the bout. What is being done to keep the bout from sinking, not only from the weight of the guitar but also the weight of the arm pressing down? Again, I somehow manage to keep this position but it distracts me mentally while playing. Maybe I am doing the right things, but just need to get used to it so that I am not bothered by the effort it take?

01:28: Classical position. This is more comfortable and I do use this position occasionally, but a foot stool isn't always available so would like to get more comfortable with the causal position.

[Brent Hahn]

I play with the guitar on the "wrong" leg, and I've always had occasional problems with the guitar getting away from me. BB King (playing his big electric) always wore a strap sitting down, and I've started doing it, too. I thought it might look dorky and distracting, but so far I don't think anyone's even noticed it.

[Blueser100]

I usually play seated anyway but have found wearing a strap helps me maintain good posture. I use my Soundseat and no longer lean back on a couch or play sitting on the bed anymore. I've noticed less pain in my body overall. Moving to small body guitars exclusively also has helped.

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n

01:28: Classical position. This is more comfortable and I do use this position occasionally, but a foot stool isn't always available...

Try sitting in a lower chair. I rarely need or use a footrest.

[TBman]

After years of wrestling with this issue I finally said enough is enough. I put strap buttons in all of my guitars and play seated wearing a strap. This solved everything.

[RockyRacc00n]

Thanks for the responses so far. So it looks like the responses so far have from from you guys that also struggled with the casual position and found some work around for it. Lower seat for classical so no foot stool is required (I've thought about getting a drum throne for this purpose), wearing a strap while seated... kind of a hassle, especially when the guitar lives in the case during most dry seasons. Anyway, thanks for sharing your experiences. Good to know I am not alone with this struggle.

Anyone out there comfortable with the casual position? If so how do you manage to keep the guitar stable? Is your arm mostly floating above the bout and only a small fraction of the arm weight pressing down? That's the main part I struggle with. Too much arm resting on the bout, then the bout teeters over and back.

[tonyo]

I experimented with my seated playing guitar position till I got it as close as possible to what it's like when I'm on a stool (half way between seated and standing up) and standing up. That way it's the smallest change as I go through those 3 positions.

I've read various people say to wear a strap when seated. I do wear a strap when on the stool and when standing up, but so enjoy just picking the guitar up and playing without bothering with a strap when seated that I just don't get around to trying that. I suspect it would help.

The geometry of standing up is the most different, if I plan to play at an open mic, then I rehearse standing up for a few days before and it works well.

[jseth]

Playing while you're "laying back" a little is going to give you serious fits "down the road"...

One thing is, it's hard on the lower back and shoulders because they get kind of "rounded over" to fit the couch...

Another is that you WILL bend your head and neck forward so you can "check out" what your fingers are doing... which I understand for beginners, but learning to "feel" your way around the guitar neck is something everyone deals with... also, if you're benidng your head and neck forward, you are gonna give yourself some interesting orthapedic episodes after doing that for years and years...

Lastly, having the guitar down on your lap, leaning back a bit, puts your fretting hand in a compromised position for anything except open position chords... play barre chords in that position for very long and your wrist will let you know that "something ain't right"!

Trust me - I've been playing for nearly 60 years and have had to learn a lot of this stuff "the hard way'... there are always different exercises and such you can do to correct/alleviate discomfort, but starting out with some modicum of information about "what" is happening to your body will serve you much better... than trying to fix that flat tire in the middle of a cold, rainy night... (forgive the "ballpark analogy", but I'm a writer, hey!)

[RockyRacc00n]

Originally Posted by jseth

Playing while you're "laying back" a little is going to give you serious fits "down the road"...

Not sure where you got that impression. Perhaps you assumed I was leaning back from the fact that I said I play on my couch? Looks like I didn’t specify in my original post, but when I am on my couch, I am scooted forward so that my legs are protruding away from the cushion and it’s just my butt making contact. And this is at approx 45 or less degree angle so that the bout gets to rest on the cushion as well. This is the stability I lack when I am on a chair or a stool.

Thank you on your other points, but I am aware of the craning neck, slouched posture, and do my best to avoid those things creeping in.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n

00:19: Casual position. There is more weight towards the bout. What is being done to keep the bout from sinking, not only from the weight of the guitar but also the weight of the arm pressing down?

The weight of the arm balances the weight of the rest of the guitar. It also holds the body of the guitar back against the torso.

However, I agree this is not the most stable position. The classical position (1:28) and the cross-leg position (2:36) are better in that respect.
He doesn't actually demonstrate a more common variation on that,where the right leg closes over the left - like this guy:


The classical position is ideal for fingerstyle, but not so good for strumming. It's also awkward with large dreadnought-style bodies.

Both cross-leg positions hold the guitar very firmly under the right arm. You really need to tuck the guitar body as far back on your thigh - against your body as it will. His "knee-up" position is the most secure I've found - here are two great players who use it (some of the time at least):


Notice how Bert tucked the guitar right back,the top leaning forward. This really clamps the guitar in position between leg, right arm and body. (You don't have to be on a high stool, it works fine if not better on a normal chair.)

[RockyRacc00n]

Originally Posted by JonPR

The weight of the arm balances the weight of the rest of the guitar. It also holds the body of the guitar back against the torso.

However, I agree this is not the most stable position. The classical position (1:28) and the cross-leg position (2:36) are better in that respect.
He doesn't actually demonstrate a more common variation on that,where the right leg closes over the left - like this guy:


The classical position is ideal for fingerstyle, but not so good for strumming. It's also awkward with large dreadnought-style bodies.

Both cross-leg positions hold the guitar very firmly under the right arm. You really need to tuck the guitar body as far back on your thigh - against your body as it will. His "knee-up" position is the most secure I've found - here are two great players who use it (some of the time at least):


Notice how Bert tucked the guitar right back,the top leaning forward. This really clamps the guitar in position between leg, right arm and body. (You don't have to be on a high stool, it works fine if not better on a normal chair.)

Speaking of crossing the legs, actually I find it more stable this way, left leg crossed over. This maybe what I am looking for.



This raises the left leg as in the classical position and the bout gets to rest on the right leg, allowing more of my arm to press down without the guitar feeling like it’s going to teeter over.

Kind of surprised that this position doesn’t come up more often. It seems all of the cross legged positions coming up google search are with the right leg crossed.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n

Speaking of crossing the legs, actually I find it more stable this way, left leg crossed over. This maybe what I am looking for.



This raises the left leg as in the classical position and the bout gets to rest on the right leg, allowing more of my arm to press down without the guitar feeling like it’s going to teeter over.

Kind of surprised that this position doesn’t come up more often. It seems all of the cross legged positions coming up google search are with the right leg crossed.

I think that position may be more common simply because it's an easy one to find. If the guitar is already sitting on your right thigh, then it's natural (if you want to raise the height of the guitar) to just raise that leg and cross it over the left.

But I agree about left leg over right. I don't often use it myself, but it does give the guitar a firmer grounding: waist on left leg, bout on right. With right leg over left, the guitar just sits on its waist and can rock - so you have grip it more firmly with the right arm (if you're not going to hold the neck with the left hand, which you shouldn't have to do). I find I tend to push with my right arm, not down, but from the outside of the bout towards where the waist sits on my thigh, so I'm gripping the guitar in that direction; but it's still not totally secure. (I've never played with a strap while seated, but I'm going to experiment with that too.)

There are two main considerations, in short:
1. Firmness of grip. The leg(s), right arm and torso (maybe assisted by a strap) need to hold the guitar securely enough that fret hand action won't move it out of position. (The fret hand doesn't support the neck, of course.)
2. Left wrist/arm angle. The fretting arm elbow should be at 90 degrees or less and the wrist straight. This is the case with the classical position, and there's no reason why it can't be with the casual position, or with either cross-legged position - one just has to make sure the neck doesn't drift too far down or forward.

[RockyRacc00n]

Originally Posted by JonPR

But I agree about left leg over right. I don't often use it myself, but it does give the guitar a firmer grounding: waist on left leg, bout on right.

Yes. Firmer grounding on your lap.

Originally Posted by JonPR

I find I tend to push with my right arm, not down, but from the outside of the bout towards where the waist sits on my thigh, so I'm gripping the guitar in that direction; but it's still not totally secure.

I tried that too. But my arm isn't long enough for my hand to comfortably reach the sweet spot over the sound hole when my arm has to come across the body like that. I think that looks cooler though =)... But yes, if you can push with your arm, more from behind the bout, then that would feel more secure.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n

... my arm isn't long enough for my hand to comfortably reach the sweet spot over the sound hole...

Is that your sweet spot? Mine's usually a little bit back of the hole. I like both the pointier sound and the higher string tension. Plus, the pick naturally crosses the strings at closer to a 90º angle without my having to un-relax my wrist.

[RockyRacc00n]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Is that your sweet spot? Mine's usually a little bit back of the hole. I like both the pointier sound and the higher string tension. Plus, the pick naturally crosses the strings at closer to a 90º angle without my having to un-relax my wrist.

Yes. I like to be more over the sound hole than towards the back of it. But I do probably drift back and forth over the sound hole. But if my arm were to come more across the body as you described, the furthest I could reach is probably the back edge of the sound hole. I play a dread.

After going through this discussion, I am going to get my butt off the couch more and try playing on a higher chair or stool with the left leg over right. That felt ok to me last night.