The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 06-18-2006, 08:03 AM
SadButTrue SadButTrue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Default Rainsong Problem [ Bubbles in Finish ]

In May, I bought my WS 3000 guitar USED (therefore under no warranty at all) but I thought that was ok because this guitar is supposed to be "indestructable." It had a slight problem with the finish. There were small bubbles on the lower part of the front, and also above the sound hole. The initial look of the used guitar didn't bother me. (Now, learn from me: if you ever see a Rainsong with this "feature"... avoid it! Also, you might want to consider... if the finish in the Rainsong gets damaged, what will you do? Even if the guitar is new, the finish is not covered specifically under the lifetime warranty.)

I am new to this Acoustic Guitar Forum. I joined because I found a message about someone who had a problem in the finish of his Rainsong guitar... specifically, "bubbles." Wish I'd read the message before contacting Rainsong. It would've been good ammunition, because when I asked them (specifically, Jeane) about "bubbles"-- which is the specific word I also used, and they denied ever hearing about such a problem from anyone ever!

Sometime a month after buying the guitar, I played my guitar outside in the sunlight for about 10-15 minutes. The guitar started getting hot. I smelled chemicals. The guitar went a little out of tune. Of course, I will never do that again, and I took the guitar inside and didn't think much about it.

Last weekend, when I looked at the guitar... the finish has bubbled all over the place on the face of the guitar! And, the original bubbled areas have grown in area & height. It's as if the sunlight activated the original bubble problem into something worse.

From Rainsong, I learned that my guitar is from 2004 and it was not a factory blem or second. So that means it passed quality assurance. That means the original bubbles I observed weren't in the finish initially? They got there on their own?

From Rainsong I learned what I noted: the lacquer finish on top is *very* thin.

From Rainsong, I learned they have NEVER heard of bubbling (again, read the other message located in the forum- that person contacted Rainsong about his new guitar and even sent it back to them).

I thought this guitar was supposed to be impervious to weather changes? I thought it had a "UV protected coating." Wrong. Watch out!

Currently, in only a small portion of the top is the finish nice & smooth. The "texture" of the graphite fabric is coming through in most spots, and then there are these larger "bubbling" areas. Outside of playing it in the sun briefly, I don't know what is happening. The bubbling in the finish is extremely visible and looks bad.

On a bright note, at least the guitar still sound great & plays well.

My options-- first, I would *not* send it back to Rainsong because I figure they didn't get it right in the first place.

Do you have any advice, experience with this problem. My choices are:
(1) Taking it somewhere to get the top refinished
(2) Leave this bubble-ladened thing alone.

Thanks for reading my message.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-18-2006, 09:04 AM
Brackett Instruments Brackett Instruments is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Grover NC
Posts: 5,154
Default

Take it to a body shop that paints cars and have it re finished.
__________________
woody b politically incorrect since 1964
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-18-2006, 10:07 AM
MissouriPicker MissouriPicker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,642
Default

I've had my WS1000 since the summer of 2000. Longer than what I previously thought, and I've played literally everywhere with it. I've taken it on camping trips, played outside in very cold weather many times, been in extreme heat at Winfield, and been in heavy rain with it. I won't intentionally take my other guitars into these situations. It's a great guitar. You use the word indestructible. I've heard people say you can't break them, etc. Well, that's a complete mis-representation by people who have not read just what the factory says. They are exceptionally strong against impacts. However, it is possible to poke a hole in one with a sharp corner or instrument. Yes, they handle extremes much better than wood guitars, but one still should take care of them. I don't take less precautions with mine because it's a well-made and sturdy guitar. I suspect if I left it out of its case and someone sat on it, it would be damaged. I have no idea what happened to the finish of your Rainsong when the original owner had it. Kind of sounds like he/she might have gotten too close to a heated oven or fire. I have read that near/direct contact with a very hot surface can cause some damage. If this particular Rainsong had bubbles when it was purchased, it should have been returned at that time.

Taking your guitar out into the sunlight does not damage a Rainsong. As you've indicated, this problem was already there. In regard to getting it refinished----make sure whoever does the job is skilled in working with carbon-graphite material. And if you talked to Jeanne (Carr?), she's been with them for years. She knows her job. If it was Rainsong's problem, they would make it right........Not trying to argue with you, but Rainsong is pretty decent to deal with. Maybe the original owner didn't tell you the entire story. Either way, I hope you get it resolved. Good luck to you and your's.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-18-2006, 11:32 AM
gerardo1000 gerardo1000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,448
Default

I dealt with Rainsong (Ashvin Koomar) once in the past, and they were absolutely great.They replaced a WS-1000 with a dreadnought after a few months not because there was a problem, but because I changed my mind ! I really think that you should talk to them and I am 100 % sure that they will fix the problem.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-18-2006, 05:12 PM
Bobalouie3's Avatar
Bobalouie3 Bobalouie3 is offline
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: LoCo, NoVA
Posts: 1,001
Default

Back when I designed and built composite airplanes, we did some research to see what it would take to get a graphice-epoxy composite firewall certified. We had to use the FAA specification that stated something to the effect of a 1500 Deg F point flame for 15 min. Well...let me tell you something about graphite-epoxe composite...it don't like heat, any kind of heat!

Also, keep in mind that your guitar was most likely baked in an oven at 300 deg or so. Given it's black color and a bright sunny day, I would not be surprised if you were getting the fabric hot enough to start the outgassing process. I'm not saying the surface of your guitar was at 300 deg, but it sounds like it definitely got hot enough for the resin and finish to trap escaping gas bubbles...
__________________
Russ
“When you're swervin' on life's highway, you're runnin' someone off the road."
-- Robert Earl Keen
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-18-2006, 06:10 PM
Highway_61 Highway_61 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 572
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody b
Take it to a body shop that paints cars and have it re finished.
woody b might be right, but it is my opinion that the less finish the better. If the guitar sounds great, why weight it down with "paint"?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-18-2006, 06:26 PM
Antonio Salieri Antonio Salieri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bayou City, TX, USA
Posts: 1,081
Default

I might be wrong (I have the gift), but I would think/hope that Rainsong would WANT to hear about this problem, and examine the guitar themselves. I sincerely hope that you get this resolved to your satisfaction.
__________________
Play as though nobody is listening.

Taylor 414e Ltd Claro Walnut__Takamine EC132C__Larrivee 000-40R__Yairi WY-1__Alvarez PJ85SC-DVS & PJ85SC-12DVS, RB30SC__Guild GAD-JF48__Seagull Model 12, S12, S6+ Folk, M4 Spruce__Ibanez AW-25 (12s), PF5CENT __Olympia OD?, OP2__Hohner Morena-HAM 712 mandolin__Flight Ukulele__Yamaha Guitalele
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-18-2006, 06:40 PM
SadButTrue SadButTrue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Default

I also have the gift of being wrong

Your messages are all so thoughtful, thanks.

I wrote 3 separate emails to Rainsong, to which I received 2 replies. I believe they have heard of this problem before, but are not admitting it.

Bobalouie3's message is very plausible, about the bubbles trying to escape.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-19-2006, 09:36 AM
DRK HRSE DRK HRSE is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 87
Default

I VERY recently bought mine (Jumbo)... the dealer I go to has forgotten more about instruments than I'll ever learn...

1st thing out of his mouth 'Just don't let her get above 170Deg - the bonding adhesives will start to break down'

Now 300 deg never from direct sunlight - but getting 'near' the 170 mark... maybe..

I haven't as yet tested any 'destructive' claims... I have noticed alternate tunings have less of an effect on the other strings (essentially neck relief) than my others ...

Are you sure the last guy didn't use some 'wierd' chemical to clean the guitar starting a chemical reaction that weakened the CF ??

From all I have read, RainSong is a very reputable company and wants to do the right thing... work with them - give them a chance...

I'm the classic - In your Face customer... that doesn't always work...
__________________
Tak EG523SC-12 (12-String)
Tak Classical
Ovation '94 20th Anniv Special
Seagull S6+



PowerTab Users - Check out the PowerTab Tutorial
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-19-2006, 12:12 PM
beach bob beach bob is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRK HRSE
I VERY recently bought mine (Jumbo)... the dealer I go to has forgotten more about instruments than I'll ever learn...

1st thing out of his mouth 'Just don't let her get above 170Deg - the bonding adhesives will start to break down'
Hmmm... I need to rethink buying a CA for trips across state, leaving it in the van while I work, so I have something to play when I hook up in St Pete w/ my pickin' bud... though it'd still a good option for the campfire picking needs....

I guess maybe I should just have a west coast guitar & leave it w/ my bud...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-19-2006, 03:52 PM
Bobalouie3's Avatar
Bobalouie3 Bobalouie3 is offline
Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: LoCo, NoVA
Posts: 1,001
Default

Every material has a weekness. Composites are great, but they are heat sensitive. The hotter they get the weaker they become and you can start having delamination problems (very bad and can be invisible until it's too late) as the resin looses it's stiffness.

Remember, the carbon/graphite your Rainsong is made out of is nothing more than woven cloth with a really stiff heat sensitive glue keeping it from moving...
__________________
Russ
“When you're swervin' on life's highway, you're runnin' someone off the road."
-- Robert Earl Keen
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=