The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Other Stringed Instruments

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09-18-2019, 10:53 AM
ziapack ziapack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 229
Default Question for the Reso crew....

Do you glue the biscuit to the cone in addition to placing the wood screw into the biscuit? In researching the topic I see it stated either way. Is there a perceived benefit from either technique? If so, what would that benefit be?

I'm replacing the cone in my Republic Highway 61 with what I feel would be an upgrade to a National Hot Rod cone and am just wondering what technique would be most beneficial. Any insight into the topic would be appreciated.

In addition....the National Hot Rod cone comes with a new maple biscuit and saddle painted black. I'm leaning towards staying with the original unpainted biscuit and bone saddle, with the impression that the unpainted version will allow better resonance than the dampening effect of a layer of paint. There is also a significant difference in thickness of the saddle material used in the 2 biscuits. The National saddle being bulky in appearance and the original saddle being thin bone appearing fragile. Is it a matter of trial and error? Am I over thinking this?

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment that can be shared.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-18-2019, 03:36 PM
frankmcr frankmcr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,410
Default

Opinions differ, as you've probably noticed. For example

Glue: https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Onlin...it_Bridge.html

Don't glue: https://replogleresos.com/workbench/...iscuit-bridge/

Seems like glue, unless you're certain the biscuit fits perfectly, is the answer, mostly.
__________________
Martin 0-28VS
Gibson Arlo Guthrie
Fender Robert Cray Strat
Buckeye Mandolin
Kamaka HF-1D
Tom Yocky dulcimer
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-18-2019, 09:17 PM
LemonCats LemonCats is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Catsville
Posts: 141
Default

Well Im probably not much help but I've been wondering this same thing too since I've been thinking about getting a republic and upgrading the cone aswell

And I've watched alot of videos on youtube of people doing this to republics and replacing old national's too
And consistently they all opted for the glue method

Maybe there's something behind it. Thinking about it now the less chances for something to rattle the better. So having that extra screw and washer in there do give it a chance for something extra to rattle eventually. And as a side note i heard over-tightening the screw could cause the thin aluminum cone to warp alittle by that area; so if you do stick with the screw just be mindful of that
__________________
12 Fret-Slotted Headstocked-Wide Necked Fanatic
Harmony Stella, Cordoba, Doff, Republic
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-18-2019, 09:22 PM
LemonCats LemonCats is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Catsville
Posts: 141
Default

Oh btw how did your republic come?-> Did it need any fixing up initially? How long have you had it and has it held up?
__________________
12 Fret-Slotted Headstocked-Wide Necked Fanatic
Harmony Stella, Cordoba, Doff, Republic
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:08 AM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chugiak, Alaska
Posts: 25,770
Default

Zia, Iíve owned Nationals that had unpainted biscuits and saddles, and some with painted. Iíve replaced painted biscuits and saddles with unpainted, and vice versa. Thereís no discernible difference in tone that I could detect, and I was listening.

The only advantage of one over the other that I can see or hear is that the painted saddles seem to be a bit more resistant to string wear than the unpainted ones are. They donít wear out quite as quickly.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:33 AM
tdq tdq is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,241
Default

If I was doing it I'd probably use a screw and a TINY bit of glue for piece of mind. I'm pretty sure my national had a little when I took off the biscuit when I wanted to take a bit off the saddle. Although come to think of it I didn't re-glue it when I remounted it, I just put the screw back in. No problems so far.
As for the painted vs unpainted biscuit, I doubt there's any difference (unless the paint is really thick....)
__________________
National Resophonic NRP 12 Fret
Loar LH-700-VS Archtop
Herrmann Weissenborn
Recording King RP-10
Maton 425 12-string
Stella Tenor
ESP 400 series telecaster
My Youtube
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-19-2019, 09:03 AM
ziapack ziapack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 229
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonCats View Post
Oh btw how did your republic come?-> Did it need any fixing up initially? How long have you had it and has it held up?
I have had it going on 5 years, it was great out of the box and have had no issues with it what so ever. It would seem a very solid build, no quality issues, and primarily why I want to make some upgrades for the purpose of tweaking the sound a bit. Make it my own so to speak. Not an expensive change to make and if I like it great, and if I prefer the original parts no sweat to revert back, just tinkering.

I have heard a lot of negative regarding customer service with Republic, and I have certainly not experienced that, quite the opposite in fact. I have had quick responses to all emails and phone calls prior to buying the instrument and for inquiries once it was purchased.

I dropped it a few years ago and it landed bad and snapped off a tuner post. Not a fault of quality by any means. I called up Republic, they sent me a spare tuner, no charge, arrived within the week. I did opt to change out the tuners instead to Grovers that had a little different look and smoother function, I'm happy with that change.

It's heavy, probably out weighs my Tele, I've never put it on a scale. Love the feel, love the sound, play it regularly, very hard to put down. I played a Mule while in Chicago a month ago, certainly not a Mule, but for my purpose it suits me fine.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-19-2019, 09:11 AM
ziapack ziapack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 229
Default

@ Wade, thanks for the info on the biscuits, that is helpful.

@ tdq, yea, National was one of the references that suggested glueing the biscuit, then states not necessary, was personal choice. Hmm...what do you do with that info?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:26 AM
frankmcr frankmcr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziapack View Post
@ Wade, thanks for the info on the biscuits, that is helpful.

@ tdq, yea, National was one of the references that suggested glueing the biscuit, then states not necessary, was personal choice. Hmm...what do you do with that info?
"You shouldn't have to, but it can't hurt."
__________________
Martin 0-28VS
Gibson Arlo Guthrie
Fender Robert Cray Strat
Buckeye Mandolin
Kamaka HF-1D
Tom Yocky dulcimer
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:07 AM
gfirob gfirob is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Central Vermont
Posts: 627
Default

I had an interesting experience this week with my í32 National Style O. Another musician was doing a house concert here and he had the same model and year of National guitar with one differenceóhe had replaced the maple biscuit and saddle with an ebony biscuit and bone saddle (glued with a screw).

His guitar was noticeably brighter, with a clearer high end. It was a dramatic comparison because the guitars were about 6 months apart in age and identical in every way. And unlike wooden guitars, metal body guitars are made with identical materials so there is no variation there. Both guitars had new National cones. Pretty dramatic difference. I am going to look into having this done to my guitar.
__________________
2003 Martin OM-42, K&K's
1932 National Style O, K&K's
1936 Kalamazoo KG-14, K&K's
1957 National 1155 (Gibson J45 body, National neck) K&K's
1967 Gretsch 6120 Chet Atkins Nashville
2005 Warmoth Telecaster, Lindy Fralins
Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina
Tonedexter
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-19-2019, 01:46 PM
LemonCats LemonCats is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Catsville
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gfirob View Post
he had replaced the maple biscuit and saddle with an ebony biscuit and bone saddle

His guitar was noticeably brighter, with a clearer high end. It was a dramatic comparison
I've been wondering about saddle material too, I noticed amazon has a seller that makes saddles for resos with all different types of woods/wood combos
ex: a koa saddle with an ebony top where the strings would connect / a maple saddle with ebony and koa on the top etc
also koa biscuits

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Replogle+...=bl_dp_s_web_0
https://www.amazon.com/Replogle-Reso...ateway&sr=8-14
__________________
12 Fret-Slotted Headstocked-Wide Necked Fanatic
Harmony Stella, Cordoba, Doff, Republic
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:44 AM
ziapack ziapack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 229
Default

Made the swap yesterday, and what a dramatic difference, very pleased with the outcome. Didn't stop with just the cone transplant, but also had ordered and installed a National Hot Plate Resophonic Pickup. And....it's awesome!

frankmcr shared two articles regarding glueing the biscuit, the second was pro do not glue, but explained exactly why I should glue. The article explained with proper set up of the biscuit and cone that fit was the key and did not require glueing. Then went on to describe leveling of the biscuit, sanding, filing and how to properly fit the biscuit. Appeared above my pay grade, so I glued. This adds the "mortar" so to speak to make the proper contact between biscuit and cone. Requires just a very fine bead of glue to fill any depressions or voids between the two materials, add your screw and presto, done.

The cone was a perfect match and just dropped into place, I just wiped out dust to make for better contact. I did use my original biscuit, the new biscuit from National would have required shaping, filing groves for the string spacing and height adjustments for proper action and once again, beyond my experience and comfort level.

Installing the Hot Plate was not a perfect fit, but went together nicely. The opening on the Republic is just slightly larger than the Hot Plate layout. There is good contact along the whole diameter but the screw holes did not line up. I centered the plate in the location, used some masking tape to secure it, and redrilled the holes. I was able to use the old screws, the plate has a great look, the cool factor is off the chart.

Initial impression after the upgrades, less volume, not drastic but less. The tone greatly improved and what I had hoped for. More warmth and clarity to the notes, greater sustain, pleasing to my ear. Then of course I can plug in the Hot Plate and oh my!! The Hot Plate design does a great job of amplifying the resophonic sound and adds a whole new dimension to the capabilities of the guitar. Way beyond what I had hoped for and I am very pleased.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:21 PM
LemonCats LemonCats is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Catsville
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziapack View Post
Made the swap yesterday, and what a dramatic difference, very pleased with the outcome. Didn't stop with just the cone transplant, but also had ordered and installed a National Hot Plate Resophonic Pickup. And....it's awesome!

frankmcr shared two articles regarding glueing the biscuit, the second was pro do not glue, but explained exactly why I should glue. The article explained with proper set up of the biscuit and cone that fit was the key and did not require glueing. Then went on to describe leveling of the biscuit, sanding, filing and how to properly fit the biscuit. Appeared above my pay grade, so I glued. This adds the "mortar" so to speak to make the proper contact between biscuit and cone. Requires just a very fine bead of glue to fill any depressions or voids between the two materials, add your screw and presto, done.

The cone was a perfect match and just dropped into place, I just wiped out dust to make for better contact. I did use my original biscuit, the new biscuit from National would have required shaping, filing groves for the string spacing and height adjustments for proper action and once again, beyond my experience and comfort level.

Installing the Hot Plate was not a perfect fit, but went together nicely. The opening on the Republic is just slightly larger than the Hot Plate layout. There is good contact along the whole diameter but the screw holes did not line up. I centered the plate in the location, used some masking tape to secure it, and redrilled the holes. I was able to use the old screws, the plate has a great look, the cool factor is off the chart.

Initial impression after the upgrades, less volume, not drastic but less. The tone greatly improved and what I had hoped for. More warmth and clarity to the notes, greater sustain, pleasing to my ear. Then of course I can plug in the Hot Plate and oh my!! The Hot Plate design does a great job of amplifying the resophonic sound and adds a whole new dimension to the capabilities of the guitar. Way beyond what I had hoped for and I am very pleased.
Phweew a hot plate too? Lucky Butt! haha
I would love to see pictures and or hear it with the new cone and hear it plugged in!

Right now im trying to make a decision between a single cone and a tricone and I'm sweating bullets cus I dont want to order one and then regret not getting the other instead. I would love both but yeah
Really wish i had a dealer in my area who carried these

The only thing im worried about with the single cone is how long a note sustains and how long a chord sustains

The things im worried about with the tricone is lack of bass and clarity of individual notes when played close together
__________________
12 Fret-Slotted Headstocked-Wide Necked Fanatic
Harmony Stella, Cordoba, Doff, Republic
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-06-2019, 06:14 PM
ziapack ziapack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 229
Default

Checking to see if I can post a picture with the mobile app.


Hot plate installed with National cone.


Grover tuners.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-24-2019, 07:48 AM
hat hat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,186
Default

Generally speaking, the more weight the cone assembly has, the less sustain. the harder the saddle material is, the more the treble will be brought out. So, if you wanted a softer,more bassy/bluesy tone then use wood saddles, and a lighter wood puck. I would tend to think that gluing the puck to the cone would detract from the tone. It certainly isn't necessary.
__________________
______________
---Tom H ---
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Other Stringed Instruments

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=