For the love of language

[dirkronk]

Originally Posted by KenL

Oh, please, don't get on that mode of transportation, or else we'll have to start arguing over "buses" or "busses."

I go with the first. The second is an electrical phrase.

"Bus/buses" for the transit vehicle(s) or the electrical usage ("bus bar" etc., though "buss/busses" is also common for electrical usage)...shortening of the Latin "omnibus" (dative plural of "omnis"/"all").

"Buss/busses" meaning kiss/kisses...likely from Latin "basiare" > French "baiser" (although there are dialectic possibilities from multiple other languages).

FWIW, San Antonio's bus company, VIA Metropolitan Transit, was my client for many years. We always used "buses" as the plural in ads and PR.

Cheers,
Dirk

[ewalling]

"Stay safe."

Over the past few years, I'd guess each of us has had this said to us maybe hundreds of times. We may well have trotted it out ourselves on more than a few occasions. But what does it actually mean?

In the field of Pragmatics, a distinction is drawn between 'locutionary force' and 'illocutionary force.' Locutionary force = what the words actually mean, beyond any specific context. The phrase, "I'm cold" means that a person's body temperature has dropped. Illocutionary force is what the words mean in a specific context, and this might be different from the actual words used. "I'm cold" might mean "Could you close the window, please?" or "If you hadn't spent all our money, we could have paid the electricity bill!" "I love you" might mean "Please, don't leave me!"

So, what's the locutionary force of "Stay safe"? Probably that the speaker is worried that we might be the kind of person who takes wild risks or doesn't think about consequences, even when there is danger afoot. In the pandemic, it would have meant, "Don't go to parties or throw your arms around people and kiss them indiscriminately." For hurricanes, it would probably mean "Don't do yard work (or whatever) when the hurricane hits you full on"; "Put up your shutters if the storm is heading your way"; "Don't let the children go out to play when it hits. Stay safe."

I'd guess that in most cases the 'tip' rises above what the words actually mean. I don't think we really believe our friends would put themselves at risk, so what exactly are we saying? I'm thinking something like this: "You mean something to me, and I'm hoping you don't get nailed by whatever it is that's going round." But it's interesting how repeated phrases like this one can take on a whole different meaning. "Stay safe," to me, has begun to sound as meaningless as "How are you?" in conversational exchanges - a gesture of goodwill and little else.

[rllink]

I have to say that I've followed this thread since the beginning and it sounds a lot like my editor, who can just suck the life out of a book manuscript. We have this conversation all the time. I love her just the same and appreciate her hard work, we've been together a long time, but there is much more to writing than the Chicago Manual of Style.

[Photojeep]

My new pet peeve is how “me” has been replaced with “myself”

Why???

PJ

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

My new pet peeve is how “me” has been replaced with “myself”

Why???

PJ

Many people have a strained relationship with the word 'me'. It just sounds wrong to them. In some cases, of course, it is. The ever-popular 'John and me went out/ stayed in / did something/ etc.' is, of course, wrong, but quite a few people can't see what the difference is between that and 'The teacher spoke to John and me.' They think the 'me' must be wrong there, too, so they say, 'The teacher spoke to John and I.'

So I'm thinking maybe 'myself' could be used by those who are aware that 'me' is sometimes wrong, but they're not quite sure why. 'Myself' might seem a neutral, acceptable alternative to those difficult 'I-me' moments. Just a thought.

[KenL]

Here's one that I've watched change in my lifetime- "cancelled" has become "canceled."

I've stuck with the two L version just to be contrary, but you don't see that word very often anymore.

However, I was watching the hurricane coverage last night, and they showed an airport arrival/departure status monitor with all the flights "Cancelled." Took me by surprise, but I was happy to see it.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by KenL

Here's one that I've watched change in my lifetime- "cancelled" has become "canceled."

I've stuck with the two L version just to be contrary, but you don't see that word very often anymore.

However, I was watching the hurricane coverage last night, and they showed an airport arrival/departure status monitor with all the flights "Cancelled." Took me by surprise, but I was happy to see it.

I think this is a British vs. US difference. The British tend to double the 'l' on all two-syllable words when a vowel suffix is added: -ed, -ing, etc. US speakers double it only when the stress is on the second syllable. Therefore, because 'cancel' is pronounced 'CANcel' (stress on the 1st syllable), they use a single 'l' in 'canceled,' but because a word like 'propel' is pronounced 'proPEL' (stress in the 2nd syllable), they double the 'l' and write 'propelled.'

[rokdog49]

My pet peeves are missed pronunciations and changes in pronunciations and the actual words themselves

Word change:
Anyways
Pronunciations:
Emediate or Uhmediate
Jag wire
Southmore or Southamore
Buh-un (button) this one really gets me
Dident
Coodent
Woodent

Pittsburg-ese
Cleveland Bronze
Dontawn Youngstawn
Stellars

[Taylor814]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Many people have a strained relationship with the word 'me'. It just sounds wrong to them. In some cases, of course, it is. The ever-popular 'John and me went out/ stayed in / did something/ etc.' is, of course, wrong, but quite a few people can't see what the difference is between that and 'The teacher spoke to John and me.' They think the 'me' must be wrong there, too, so they say, 'The teacher spoke to John and I.'

So I'm thinking maybe 'myself' could be used by those who are aware that 'me' is sometimes wrong, but they're not quite sure why. 'Myself' might seem a neutral, acceptable alternative to those difficult 'I-me' moments. Just a thought.

Yes, this is one of my pet peeves as well. Interestingly, no one ever says "If you have any questions, ask myself"; it's only "If you have any questions ask John or myself". Somehow the confusion only occurs when two or more people are in the object. I think your explanation is correct, but why people don't seem to understand the difference between a subject, object or reflexive pronoun is unclear. But, languages are a means of communication and they certainly do evolve (devolve?). People will speak as they choose to speak. German is a highly synthetic language with 4 cases, but there is some evidence that the genitive case is disappearing in the spoken language. Written Dutch used to have 4 cases a hundred years ago as well, but that has disappeared just as in English. Still, it seems to me that there is a very useful distinction between "me" and "myself" that shouldn't be obscured.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Taylor814

Yes, this is one of my pet peeves as well. Interestingly, no one ever says "If you have any questions, ask myself"; it's only "If you have any questions ask John or myself". Somehow the confusion only occurs when two or more people are in the object. I think your explanation is correct, but why people don't seem to understand the difference between a subject, object or reflexive pronoun is unclear. But, languages are a means of communication and they certainly do evolve (devolve?). People will speak as they choose to speak. German is a highly synthetic language with 4 cases, but there is some evidence that the genitive case is disappearing in the spoken language. Written Dutch used to have 4 cases a hundred years ago as well, but that has disappeared just as in English. Still, it seems to me that there is a very useful distinction between "me" and "myself" that shouldn't be obscured.

Interesting.

I wonder, though; does anyone teach this kind of stuff to US children? When I was growing up in England, they didn't. Teaching grammar was considered old hat, and English classes tended to be all about reading or creative writing until we reached 13 or 14, when literature became the thing. Most of the boys at my school used grammar correctly because they were lucky to have parents that did. I liked languages and only learned the terms to describe my own language through studying French and Spanish, which were still being taught in a traditional way.

[Eldergreene]

2 bugbears here in the UK:

Interviewees on the radio beginning their reply to a question with " So,.." - previously it would have been " Well,..", but "So,.." just sounds inappropriate, & grates,

Also, an increasing propensity for pronouncing the letter H as "Haitch", instead of "Aitch" - I even hear BBC announcers doing this, which I find somewhat appalling - the kind of thing you'd expect a small child to do, but not the nation's broadcaster!

Glad I got those off my chest..

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by Eldergreene

2 bugbears here in the UK:

Interviewees on the radio beginning their reply to a question with " So,.." - previously it would have been " Well,..", but "So,.." just sounds inappropriate, & grates,

Also, an increasing propensity for pronouncing the letter H as "Haitch", instead of "Aitch" - I even hear BBC announcers doing this, which I find somewhat appalling - the kind of thing you'd expect a small child to do, but not the nation's broadcaster!

Glad I got those off my chest..

In Londonese it would be

"eyetch"

I suppose.

[Brucebubs]

Americans seem to be the only ones adding the word 'at' to questions like, 'Where are you at?"

Doesn't seem necessary, just "Where are you?" sounds perfectly adaquate.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Americans seem to be the only ones adding the word 'at' to questions like, 'Where are you at?"

Doesn't seem necessary, just "Where are you?" sounds perfectly adaquate.

Maybe we are also wanting to inquire as to attitude, as well as long and lat

[Photojeep]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Many people have a strained relationship with the word 'me'. It just sounds wrong to them. In some cases, of course, it is. The ever-popular 'John and me went out/ stayed in / did something/ etc.' is, of course, wrong, but quite a few people can't see what the difference is between that and 'The teacher spoke to John and me.' They think the 'me' must be wrong there, too, so they say, 'The teacher spoke to John and I.'

So I'm thinking maybe 'myself' could be used by those who are aware that 'me' is sometimes wrong, but they're not quite sure why. 'Myself' might seem a neutral, acceptable alternative to those difficult 'I-me' moments. Just a thought.

I agree with your examples it can be confusing so before I speak or write, I use a technique I learned decades ago; I menatlly split the sentence into two, "The teacher spoke to me." and "The teacher spoke to John." At least for me, the proper word becomes glaringly obvious.

When I was a professor, I had my students write an artist's statement to accompany their final portfolio of photographs. I found that many students' first drafts mis-used "myself". It seemed they were trying to sound "sophisticated." In my critiques, I asked them to just be themselves and use their own voice and words. Every single one dropped "myself" when using their own voice.

Now if only policital leaders and broadcasters would stop ...

Rant over.

Best,
PJ