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  #1  
Old 09-30-2022, 11:12 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Default new song copyright claims in US court

So do ya'll think the US federal judge is right...or, that he's ...well take your pick ?
https://www.musicradar.com/news/ed-s...aye-court-case
...Marvin's song...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6QZn9xiuOE
....Ed's song...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA
So I must admit to having no affiliation with either artist. I must admit to being perplexed however, by the US govt's criteria for judging authenticity.
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  #2  
Old 09-30-2022, 11:35 AM
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Nah. Only so many notes in an octave, so many chord progressions, etc.
Yes, I hear the similarities between the two songs but plenty of differences also.
It's an extremely vague slippery slope trying to judge this type of thing.
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Old 09-30-2022, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Nah. Only so many notes in an octave, so many chord progressions, etc.
Yes, I hear the similarities between the two songs but plenty of differences also.
It's an extremely vague slippery slope trying to judge this type of thing.
I agree, but it's a slope we're comin' down. I'd say the two songs were in the same anti melodious stream of conscious style but far from a copyright claim. And as you said ..... there's only so many ways to cook an egg. In this atmosphere, they'll be little reason to even write songs.
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Old 09-30-2022, 01:16 PM
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Ha! I cant comment on song infringement there…thats a tough one!

But since Ed is a man, and he’s in black…..I think the Cash estate has a legitimate claim against his imaging!
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Old 09-30-2022, 05:01 PM
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It isn't "The Government", it is one federal judge and all he did was reject Sheeran's lawyer's argument to dismiss the case before it goes to trial. Hardly an earth shattering decision.
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Old 10-01-2022, 07:57 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Originally Posted by rllink View Post
It isn't "The Government", it is one federal judge and all he did was reject Sheeran's lawyer's argument to dismiss the case before it goes to trial. Hardly an earth shattering decision.
well...since it says it right there on your signature...ok. US Federal judges decide policies for the 'whole' US govt everyday. They're there to interpret legal and constitutional issues , and at times, their decisions can last for decades, even centuries. Sometimes they're even the most powerful player in the mix... pun intended. All a recipe for disaster....combining lawyers and creativity imho.
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Old 10-01-2022, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
well...since it says it right there on your signature...ok. US Federal judges decide policies for the 'whole' US govt everyday. They're there to interpret legal and constitutional issues , and at times, their decisions can last for decades, even centuries. Sometimes they're even the most powerful player in the mix... pun intended. All a recipe for disaster....combining lawyers and creativity imho.
"US Federal judges decide policies for the 'whole' US govt"
Correction :
No they absolutely do not "decide" policy
Policy is "decided" by and made by the legislative and administrative branches of the US government
Yes The judicial branch interprets and offers opinions on how the policy/statutes relate to specific legal situations
Yes the Judicial decisions can arguably "influence" policy going forward, but they do not make or "decide" policy......There is a big, very distinct, and significant difference between "decide" and interpret... And that difference is a foundational element of our three branch government

And to clarify the statues do not lay out criteria of "authenticity" the lay out the basic criteria for determining if infringement has occurred


Now back to the OP
Myself while somewhat similar I do not see Sheeran's song as rising to the level of infringement -- YMMV
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Old 10-01-2022, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
well...since it says it right there on your signature...ok. US Federal judges decide policies for the 'whole' US govt everyday. They're there to interpret legal and constitutional issues , and at times, their decisions can last for decades, even centuries. Sometimes they're even the most powerful player in the mix... pun intended. All a recipe for disaster....combining lawyers and creativity imho.
And their decisions get overturned the next week. I don't think a judge's ruling in this case is going to set precedent.
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Old 10-01-2022, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
"US Federal judges decide policies for the 'whole' US govt"
Correction :
No they absolutely do not "decide" policy
Policy is "decided" by and made by the legislative and administrative branches of the US government
Yes The judicial branch interprets and offers opinions on how the policy/statutes relate to specific legal situations
Yes the Judicial decisions can arguably "influence" policy going forward, but they do not make or "decide" policy......There is a big, very distinct, and significant difference between "decide" and interpret... And that difference is a foundational element of our three branch government

And to clarify the statues do not lay out criteria of "authenticity" the lay out the basic criteria for determining if infringement has occurred

Now back to the OP
Myself while somewhat similar I do not see Sheeran's song as rising to the level of infringement -- YMMV
well @Kev your right..they interpret...but that interpretation results in policy. You have to look no further than the last few months to see exactly how much power the judicial branch has on the ground. Saying they don't make policy is ignoring reality.

And once a fed judge allows a suit to go forward, the legal costs accrued to the defendant can be enormous, such that even the cost can decide the outcome of the case. Who's got the deepest pockets usually wins. That's of course, when it's a civil case.

and @rllink...less than 15% of federal civil cases get overturned.

"When federal judges rule that laws or government actions violate the spirit of the Constitution, they profoundly shape public policy. For example, federal judges have declared over 100 federal laws unconstitutional. Another measure of the Supreme Court's power is its ability to overrule itself."
https://www.ushistory.org/gov/9e.asp
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Last edited by kurth; 10-01-2022 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
well @Kev your right..they interpret...but that interpretation results in policy. You have to look no further than the last few months to see exactly how much power the judicial branch has on the ground. Saying they don't make policy is ignoring reality.

And once a fed judge allows a suit to go forward, the legal costs accrued to the defendant can be enormous, such that even the cost can decide the outcome of the case. Who's got the deepest pockets usually wins. That's of course, when it's a civil case.

and @rllink...less than 15% of federal civil cases get overturned.

"When federal judges rule that laws or government actions violate the spirit of the Constitution, they profoundly shape public policy. For example, federal judges have declared over 100 federal laws unconstitutional. Another measure of the Supreme Court's power is its ability to overrule itself."
https://www.ushistory.org/gov/9e.asp
Oh don't misunderstand I completely agree that Judges especially the supreme court decisions can definitely influence policy ( but to be clear the policy changes come after the decisions ) and are the result of state or federal administrations and or legislators reacting too those decisions , and it is those branches, that then decide to change the policy. Because in fact it is just as often that specific judicial decisions (particularly at the district level) do not effect a change in policy -- just sayin'

I was simply trying to clarify the technical procedural aspects, because written communication on a Forum can easily go askew . I think we agree on the context, it was just the specific terminology I was questioning
In any case what do you think is the Sheeran song infringement ?
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Last edited by KevWind; 10-01-2022 at 11:40 AM.
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  #11  
Old 10-01-2022, 11:43 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Oh don't misunderstand I completely agree that Judges especially the supreme court decisions can definitely influence policy ( but to be clear the policy changes come after the decisions ) and are the result of state or federal administrations and or legislators reacting too those decisions and those it is those branches, that then decide to change the policy. Because in fact it is just as often that specific judicial decisions do not effect a change in policy -- just sayin'

I was simply trying to clarify the technical procedural aspects, because written communication on a Forum can easily go askew . I think we agree on the context, it was just the specific terminology I was questioning
In any case what do you think is the Sheeran song infringement ?
I have no idea. As I said earlier....both songs seem to be stylistically related but nothing more. I would guess the author of the Gaye song found a lawyer who sees $ because Sheeren is corporation material. This wouldn't happen if there was no money involved between two unknowns. Yet it is highly questionable why the judge allowed the suit to go forward. Could be any number of reasons. Maybe they have some type of AI program that recognizes similarities when even humans can't hear them, and the judge was shown their 'proof' ? Or maybe it's the other side of the spectrum, and there's kickbacks involved. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Personally over my life I've written maybe 100 lyrical songs, and every time, I try to recognize if there were any influencing factors. And sometimes an idea is tossed because I see I'm using some recent influences. The subconscious mind etc. I think it's pretty near impossible for there to be none. Our brains are blenders. And there's a good century of fruit going into the mix.
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Old 10-01-2022, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
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And their decisions get overturned the next week. I don't think a judge's ruling in this case is going to set precedent.
I don't know that's always the answer though.

Past case studies can where precedent can be a deciding factor, depending on how far or deep the previous cases went. It can be a very interesting topic to look through.

I was sitting in court one day offering moral support for my brother inlaw during divorce proceedings. The case before his was involving this kind of discussion. I was kind of fascinated by the Judge's knowledge and how he was handling the open court discussion.

I think in Copy right claims like this, precedent could be a heavy factor in the decision.

not saying anyone is right or wrong, just the topic in general is interesting.
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Old 10-01-2022, 03:53 PM
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My Sweet Lord - this again?

Another subconscious plagiarism claim. This one seems even thinner than the Harrison case.
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Old 10-01-2022, 04:59 PM
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My Sweet Lord - this again?
Ha ha, now that is punny funny ..
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Old 10-01-2022, 10:22 PM
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I think it’s ridiculous, as I do many of these types of cases. 12 notes in the western scale, 7 notes per key, limited chord progressions. It’s impossible to expect that there aren’t going to be some similarities in pieces of music.
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