Martin D18 GE Custom Shop 12 fret - set up questions...

coolhand78 · #1 03-14-2019, 06:31 AM

Hey all,

I've just received my new (2nd hand) Martin Custom Shop D18 Golden Era 12-fret, which I've purchased from the original owner who purchased it through MFG.

On first strum, the guitar is virtually unplayable - the strings were very old retros and the action at the 12th fret at 10/64ths!!!!
I replaced the strings with some SP's 12-54 and the action has remained the same.

I've measured the neck relief and its at about .007 using feeler gauges.

The most obvious thing to me is that the saddle is too high. When measured from the underside of the 6th (low E) string to the top of the guitar is exactly 1/2".

I've checked the nut and it is fine.

What are your thoughts? is the saddle too high? The height of the saddle on my 000-28EC is about 26-27/64ths, which for my money is the difference between nice action and action that's way too high...

also, if reducing the saddle height is the way to go here, is there a way to maintain the smooth transition between the saddle and bridge as it has that "scalloped" edge as per this image - assuming that you do file the saddle down from the bottom...

Thanks for your help/advice..!

zoopeda · #2 03-14-2019, 07:19 AM

That's a long saddle ("scalloped edges" you noted). These have to be taken down with a file from the top. If you sand them from the bottom, the scalloped wings will be depressed and no longer be flush with the bridge. How tall is the saddle right now?

Mobilemike · #3 03-14-2019, 07:24 AM

Sounds like you need a qualified luthier to set up your guitar. If you’re asking there questions, I would not attempt to work on this myself based on internet advice.

-Mike

zoopeda · #4 03-14-2019, 07:27 AM

Depends how handy you are. Something like a saddle costs $15 if you screw up. Not exactly like trying to reset the neck yourself. Just don't gouge the bridge by accident.

pandaroo · #5 03-14-2019, 07:43 AM

Something is not right, custom shop builds from Martin usually is near perfect right out of the box when it comes to set up and action.

My Collings also had this long saddle, i sanded the saddle from the bottom, the scalloped edges of the saddle ended up not being in flush with bridge but only slightly and it works fine, really no biggie. But in your case, you will need to sand it down a lot, best to do it from top and luthier is best to do that. The action is really high at 4mm. I hope you have enough height to bring it down without losing too much break angle, normally is a 2-1 ratio, to bring down 2mm in action, you’ll need to sand down 4 mm. Good luck, keep us posted how you went.

zhunter · #6 03-14-2019, 07:57 AM

First a caution. GE saddles are typically glued in. And can be tricky to remove. The easiest strategy is file from the top. Which is not that easy. And as noted, the standard file from the bottom method won't be visually correct. Unless you are crafty and guitar tech oriented, I think saddle work on a GE is best left for a pro.

These guitars can be run with relief basically flat. 0.007 is not a lot but you might benefit from decreasing it slightly. Remember if it is dry season where you are, the neck will lose relief as humidity increases. So if you go solid flat, you may pick up a buzz when humidity climbs.

As for filing the bridge, just remember you get half of the saddle height you remove at the 12th fret. Trim the saddle 1/8" the action drops 1/16 (4/64). And you may need 4/64" to get to spec depending on which side you were measuring 10/64". Just eyeballing your picture, that will be a pretty low saddle.

hunter

JayBee1404 · #7 03-14-2019, 08:36 AM

That guitar might be approaching neck-reset time, or there may be something else going on.

1/2" from the underneath of the low E to the soundboard immediately in front of the bridge does not indicate that the saddle is 'too high' - 1/2" is generally regarded as the perfect string-to-soundboard height. So, given the 5/32" 12th-fret action (which would require 1/8" removing from the top of the saddle to bring the 12th-fret action down to 3/32" and which, judging from the photograph, would bring the saddle down very low indeed), and the neck-relief that is nicely in-range, I don't see the saddle as the problem - I'm more inclined to think that the neck-angle may need re-setting.

Another possibility is that the guitar has not been kept properly humidified.

But....I'm no luthier and, if it were my guitar, I'd take it to a good tech/luthier, have it properly assessed, and go from there.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

zoopeda · #8 03-14-2019, 09:58 AM

It's a custom, not a standard GE series guitar. Odds are it's a drop in saddle. Either way, it needs to be filed down from the top since it's a long saddle--glued in or not.

Bottom line, OP, it depends how much saddle is left once you get the action down to where you want it. As long as the break angle over the strings is ok once you take the saddle down, you're fine. If it needs to be too low, that's often a sign of impending neck reset. Only way to know for sure is to take it to someone who knows what they're doing. But if you have an extra long saddle lying around and want to tinker with saddle height, you're not going to hurt anything as long as you don't drop a tool on the top or something.

I agree with the fellow above that you could probably take the relief down a tiny bit too. I really like my guitars closer to 0.004" or 0.005". That's not really connected to the saddle issue but may help the neck play feel like less effort.

JayBee1404 · #9 03-14-2019, 10:12 AM

By way of illustration of what I was trying to convey above, here are some pics of my HD-28V (taken single-handed on my phone just now, so not perfect, but...).

Neck-relief - 0.006"
Low 'E' to soundboard - approx 31/64"
Top of saddle to top of bridge at Low 'E' - a hair above 1/8"
12th fret action (Low 'E') - a hair below 3/32"

EB9F3200-E9C3-4D1B-A3CE-8715BC55D39A.jpg

B8B1FDC4-999D-4EC0-A3C3-2366B5161EB8.jpg

4CD6A7E4-68A7-4079-B22C-6560C8D80008.jpg

zhunter · #10 03-14-2019, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoopeda

It's a custom, not a standard GE series guitar. Odds are it's a drop in saddle. Either way, it needs to be filed down from the top since it's a long saddle--glued in or not. Bottom line, OP, it depends how much saddle is left once you get the action down to where you want it. As long as the break angle over the strings is ok once you take the saddle down, you're fine. If it needs to be too low, that's often a sign of impending neck reset. Only way to know for sure is to take it to someone who knows what they're doing. But if you have an extra long saddle lying around and want to tinker with saddle height, you're not going to hurt anything as long as you don't drop a tool on the top or something.

The saddle does have rounded ends which is considered a sign of a drop in. GEs would be glued but since it is a custom model I guess the only way to be sure is try and remove it. But I think that won't be enough to solve the issue in this case.

hunter

charles Tauber · #11 03-14-2019, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolhand78

I've just received my new (2nd hand) Martin Custom Shop D18 Golden Era 12-fret, which I've purchased from the original owner who purchased it through MFG.

Did you play the instrument prior to purchasing it, or is it mail-order?

If it is is mail-order, I'd suggest taking it to a qualified repair person. Given that the strings are 1/16" too high, you'll need to remove an 1/8" from the saddle height. From the photo, that doesn't appear to leave much saddle height.

I'd suggest having that professionally assessed immediately so that you know whether or not you are in need of a costly neck reset, bridge shaving, etc. If you alter the instrument in any way, you will likely forfeit any ability to return it to the seller.

If the seller did not inform you of the current action height, depending upon what you paid for it, it might be something you want to return rather than pay for costly repairs.

JayBee1404 · #12 03-14-2019, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhunter

The saddle does have rounded ends which is considered a sign of a drop in. GEs would be glued but since it is a custom model I guess the only way to be sure is try and remove it. But I think that won't be enough to solve the issue in this case.

hunter

The saddle on my HD-28V pictured above has rounded ends and is indeed a long drop-in. The saddle on my now-gone OM-28 Marquis had square ends, and was a long glued-in saddle.

oliverkollar · #13 03-14-2019, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Given that the strings are 1/16" too high, you'll need to remove an 1/8" from the saddle height. From the photo, that doesn't appear to leave much saddle height.

Exactly what I was thinking.

coolhand78 · #14 03-14-2019, 05:28 PM

Hey all,

Thanks for all the replies! Much appreciated. The image in my original post isn't my actual guitar, it was just one I'd found on the internet to show the type of bridge I had. Below are the images of my actual guitar...

Very keen to hear your thoughts on this, I mean if I'm heading into neck reset territory then I'm shipping it straight back, the guitar is from 2013, but was purchased originally in Dec '14, so it's not that old...

charles Tauber · #15 03-14-2019, 05:47 PM

It looks like you have 5/32” at the 12th. To get it to 3/32” you’ll need to remove 4/32 (1/8) at the saddle. Looks like your current saddle projection is about 5/32. If you remove 4/32, you’ll have 1/32” of saddle projection, which is not enough for an appropriate break angle. Doing so will also reduce the vertical height of the strings from the top at the bridge. Martin’s target design height is about 1/2”. Reducing that significantly might change the volume or tone of The instrument.

Unless the bridge is thick and can be shaved, you might be looking at a neck reset. Again, you should have a skilled professional assess it first hand.

There are other things that can be done, but are not advised on a new purchase unless the purchase price was commensurate.