Why not a Ted, Emerald X20 acoustic challenge?

[Doubleneck]

Captain Jim, a Les Paul has 22 frets? A PRS has 24. I asked the General Area if their are other acoustics with 24 frets, no one came up with one. Someone said it would interfere with the sound hole, thus the offset soundhole frees up the design for 24.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

The use of the words "design flaw" is really poor in this context...

Wow, talk about hanging on a mans every word. Let me try to clarify.

As a dealer I get to play hundreds of different guitars, and end up discussing guitars with several hundred people each year, so I have a pretty good idea as to what people like, and what could be deal breakers. Number of frets aside, if a fretboard covers all or part of the area where most of us tend to strum an acoustic, it could be a problem. Some folks might simply adjust their playing style, but given all the options we have, in my experience most will not. So if I were making one suggestion to Alistair as to how he could make the x20 more appealing to a larger group of players, it would be to reduce the length of the fretboard, because to me, anything unnecessary that turns some people off is a design flaw. He could make 20 frets standard, and offer 24 frets as an option.

Does that make sense?

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Koh

The X20 is not my thing. But the 24 fret and player-oriented soundhole are signature features of the guitar. Definitely not design flaws.

The inability to shave down the saddle to achieve a good string height, without the string end with minimum break angle, from my personal observation from Rainsong guitars, is what I call design flaw.

Since I've not played an X20 I cannot fairly say it is "not my thing". I really want to try one. There is a lot of buzz around the X20 regardless of whether or not I can stomach the aesthetics of the guitar right now- it looks like something off the set of "Aliens" to my eyes.

However Jimmy, how did you get from complimenting the minimal break angle I achieved on my Shorty just a few weeks ago (I even took the time to take a picture and post it to directly address your question) to Rainsongs having a design flaw?

Like Kerbie said, design flaw is something different- on guitars they would be intonation problems, bad neck sets (like pre-Peavey CA guitars), bad finish jobs, or other actual failures that are the subject of recalls.

The fact that I've achieved an expert set up on my RainSong for my style of play and preferences speaks the exact opposite of design flaw. I think the appropriate word here is precision.

Neither of these manufacturers are turning out design flaws. They are creating instruments that are aesthetically appealing or not, have specs that speak to us or don't, and a creative approach to their building processes. Big difference!

[TomB'sox]

I would like to remind everyone to follow rule #1 here or this thread is gone. Thank you and have a good rest of the weekend.

[Earl49]

This 24 fret discussion is really interesting, and very well timed. It is something that I have never considered before. Thanks for bringing it up, Ted.

All weekend long, I have been on the verge of clicking "add to cart" for the in-stock Opus X20-12 twelve string. There is also some vacillation toward Artisan to get the lovely green tint, which would add a pickup (that I don't need) and a full glossy finish (which my wife likes - gotta keep her happy too). But since Emerald would have to build an Artisan from scratch anyway, that might also give me the option of shortening the fret board to 20 frets. I play finger style beyond fret #12 a fair amount, but rarely beyond #17. I need to ask Sean on Monday.

I have to dig out my Taylor T5, which does not have a center sound hole. I have noticed on occasion that when playing that one, my fingers sometimes hit the top where a sound hole isn't, but I don't recall hitting the fingerboard with fingers or with a pick as being an issue. I never even considered the fret board length on the X20, but T5 is my only guitar without a center sound hole. Guess I should also play the wife's Cargo too - an offset sound hole there as well, but I rarely play her Cargo because of the short scale.

Hmmm....... something else to ponder.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Captain Jim, a Les Paul has 22 frets? A PRS has 24. I asked the General Area if their are other acoustics with 24 frets, no one came up with one. Someone said it would interfere with the sound hole, thus the offset soundhole frees up the design for 24.

Right you are. I would have to take off my shoes to count that high. I'm kidding, of course - I would need 7 toes on each foot to get it right.

I had a Les Paul for a while 30 years or so ago - now I remember why I moved it on: not enough frets!

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Since I've not played an X20 I cannot fairly say it is "not my thing". I really want to try one. There is a lot of buzz around the X20 regardless of whether or not I can stomach the aesthetics of the guitar right now- it looks like something off the set of "Aliens" to my eyes.

However Jimmy, how did you get from complimenting the minimal break angle I achieved on my Shorty just a few weeks ago (I even took the time to take a picture and post it to directly address your question) to Rainsongs having a design flaw?

Like Kerbie said, design flaw is something different- on guitars they would be intonation problems, bad neck sets (like pre-Peavey CA guitars), bad finish jobs, or other actual failures that are the subject of recalls.

The fact that I've achieved an expert set up on my RainSong for my style of play and preferences speaks the exact opposite of design flaw. I think the appropriate word here is precision.

Neither of these manufacturers are turning out design flaws. They are creating instruments that are aesthetically appealing or not, have specs that speak to us or don't, and a creative approach to their building processes. Big difference!

I agree with steelvibe's examples of what constitutes design flaws. One thing is absolutely true...all guitar builders, whether wood or composite have experienced design flaws along their journey, learned from them, and are producing fabulous instruments resulting in current day success. Personal preferences are another thing where no builder can satisfy everyone. Whether the RS N2 neck or Emerald's X20, imo the success of these instruments in no way render them as having design flaws. If one looks at Alistair's/Emerald's designs over time, it's clear that he has a different and wide take on what a guitar should look like. Like those builders who took a chance on CF and other composites as non-traditionalists, Emerald in particular has taken that leaps beyond that where there is clearly a sustainable and likely growing market. They sure keep it interesting wondering what's next.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Earl49

This 24 fret discussion is really interesting, and very well timed. It is something that I have never considered before. Thanks for bringing it up, Ted.

All weekend long, I have been on the verge of clicking "add to cart" for the in-stock Opus X20-12 twelve string. There is also some vacillation toward Artisan to get the lovely green tint, which would add a pickup (that I don't need) and a full glossy finish (which my wife likes - gotta keep her happy too). But since Emerald would have to build an Artisan from scratch anyway, that might also give me the option of shortening the fret board to 20 frets. I play finger style beyond fret #12 a fair amount, but rarely beyond #17. I need to ask Sean on Monday.

I have to dig out my Taylor T5, which does not have a center sound hole. I have noticed on occasion that when playing that one, my fingers sometimes hit the top where a sound hole isn't, but I don't recall hitting the fingerboard with fingers or with a pick as being an issue. I never even considered the fret board length on the X20, but T5 is my only guitar without a center sound hole. Guess I should also play the wife's Cargo too - an offset sound hole there as well, but I rarely play her Cargo because of the short scale.

Hmmm....... something else to ponder.

Hi Earl,

Exciting to hear that your are "just about there." I have to say, before this thread, I never counted the number of frets on my X20... just play it and enjoy it. The only "adjustment" I had to make was in the power I use when strumming/flat picking; with other guitars, I found myself digging in more - not necessary with the X20. I would not consider myself an aggressive strummer (no pick marks in any of my guitars... well, maybe that Taylor GSmini, but I haven't looked at it in a while ) So, for me, the number of frets (or any downside of that) is a non-issue.

As a competitive businessperson, I prefer to accentuate the positive... with the X20, I get more frets for my investment. When you're ready to buy that X20-12, you will also be getting a guitar from the only carbon fiber manufacturer who currently offers a 12-string in their line-up... and, you get the most excellent soundhole and 24 frets for no additional charge!

OMG, now I want to buy an Emerald 12-string! Stop the madness!!

[Puerto Player]

Yea, I'm thinking of a double neck, but I have to wait till the custom X20 arrives first.

[SLG]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

.......it looks like something off the set of "Aliens" to my eyes.

An X20 with H.R. Geiger artwork laminated into the guitar. I bet that would sell.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Earl49

This 24 fret discussion is really interesting, and very well timed. It is something that I have never considered before. Thanks for bringing it up, Ted.

Thanks, Earl. Since we sell most of our guitars long distance, I have a habit of looking for things that might cause a guitar to be returned. Over the years I've made many suggestions to the builders I deal with, in fact I suggested changing to an offset sound hole on the x7 to Alistair back in 2009 as a way of adding needed base response. It will be interesting to see if Alistair makes any changes to the x20 based on my findings, and if he does, it will be even more interesting to see what the people defending the current design will say.

[Acousticado]

Thanks, Earl. Since we sell most of our guitars long distance, I have a habit of looking for things that might cause a guitar to be returned. Over the years I've made many suggestions to the builders I deal with, in fact I suggested changing to an offset sound hole on the x7 to Alistair back in 2009 as a way of adding needed base response. It will be interesting to see if Alistair makes any changes to the x20 based on my findings, and if he does, it will be even more interesting to see what the people defending the current design will say. [/QUOTE]I admit that at first I found the X20 combined offset soundhole/soundport a little odd looking to the point that I thought I would never get one, but as time goes on, I get it and even like it enough to consider it at some point. Those that own them seem to really like them, including for time and playability. The number of frets is irrelevant to me, same with reported increased volume of the combined offset soundhole/soundport design. I easily adapt.

That said, I really like the look and effect of the top and bottom offset soundholes on the Chimaera and am curious to see an X20 with the Chimaera's top soundhole design (which really is what the X20 already has) along with the X20s existing side soundport, but with an aesthetic, strong "bridge" dividing the two. This would make the X20 look more like the Chimaera, giving the X20 a less odd look from angles where the entire opening shows. Likely not a custom option, but I think it would better suit my visual aesthetic. I would love the sunburst Savoy, but given the cost, I will still consider an X20 in the future even with its current design.

[Jimmy Koh]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Since I've not played an X20 I cannot fairly say it is "not my thing". I really want to try one. There is a lot of buzz around the X20 regardless of whether or not I can stomach the aesthetics of the guitar right now- it looks like something off the set of "Aliens" to my eyes.

However Jimmy, how did you get from complimenting the minimal break angle I achieved on my Shorty just a few weeks ago (I even took the time to take a picture and post it to directly address your question) to Rainsongs having a design flaw?

Like Kerbie said, design flaw is something different- on guitars they would be intonation problems, bad neck sets (like pre-Peavey CA guitars), bad finish jobs, or other actual failures that are the subject of recalls.

The fact that I've achieved an expert set up on my RainSong for my style of play and preferences speaks the exact opposite of design flaw. I think the appropriate word here is precision.

Neither of these manufacturers are turning out design flaws. They are creating instruments that are aesthetically appealing or not, have specs that speak to us or don't, and a creative approach to their building processes. Big difference!

Thanks for kicking that in, Sean! I apologise to all for the comment I made. I just remembered Sean has earlier posted a pic to answer my query on RS saddle height. It could be my experience of a high bridge height and a thin fret board of the RS I have here that keeps making me to think that a playable relief is not easily achievable, and hence passing a verdict that it has a design flaw.

You are right on using the word "precision", with good setup, the individually-perceived "design flaw" can be corrected.

The word "design flaw" is too big to be use here. I shall keep myself quiet on this thread from now on.

[jdinco]

I think the 24 frets is more of a "design choice" instead of a design flaw. The Emeralds do look different, I think they are beautiful, especially those woodies! Has anyone ever inquired about a 12 fret X20? That may get me to do a custom order.

Earl49 - You can order an Opus in a different color. They consider it a custom, but the price is more than reasonable. I have a red Opus, no pickup.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Koh

Thanks for kicking that in, Sean! I apologise to all for the comment I made. I just remembered Sean has earlier posted a pic to answer my query on RS saddle height. It could be my experience of a high bridge height and a thin fret board of the RS I have here that keeps making me to think that a playable relief is not easily achievable, and hence passing a verdict that it has a design flaw.

You are right on using the word "precision", with good setup, the individually-perceived "design flaw" can be corrected.

The word "design flaw" is too big to be use here. I shall keep myself quiet on this thread from now on.

Jimmy we are all here to learn. Don't let my comment chase you away as it was meant to clear the air about the quality of RainSong guitars more than to chastise you in anyway. I like to do my part in keeping this place friendly and you were not the first person to use the term "design flaw"- a term that would not be my choice of words.