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  #46  
Old 12-10-2014, 02:50 AM
Finger Stylish Finger Stylish is offline
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The Captain makes great sense.

I guess what I'm reading into Steve's original starter is to wonder, why is there not more Brand name artist playing them based on the consistency, playability, and durability of Carbon fiber.

As a commoner, I love the sound, lightweight, and as Capt, stated "it is my go-to playing out guitar", I play mine more than my wood ones. Probably because I can play longer without fatigue I experience with my D-28.

I have a couple of Pro Acoustic picker friends that live in the Nashville area.
I am having them both go to Artisan Guitars in the next few weeks(together)
and play a couple of the CA's as I am interested in the Legacy.
These friends have quite a stable of top quality Traditional Wooden Guitars and they have not yet played any of the current carbon fiber guitars.
Can't wait to hear what they think.
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Last edited by Finger Stylish; 12-10-2014 at 05:33 AM.
  #47  
Old 12-10-2014, 04:26 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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My original question seemed to morph into a wood vs carbon argument? Didn't really want that but guess I may have phrased the question to invite that? It just seemed odd to me that I so rarely see carbon with "brand name artists". It's a numbers thing could be part of it but doubt that is all of it. A strong bias to wood instruments is likely for any number of reasons. One thing not raised is whether carbon guitars have the stage presence desired? Gray carbon is predominate in Rainsongs offerings for years.
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  #48  
Old 12-10-2014, 05:33 AM
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Mbroady Mbroady is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
My original question seemed to morph into a wood vs carbon argument? Didn't really want that but guess I may have phrased the question to invite that? It just seemed odd to me that I so rarely see carbon with "brand name artists". It's a numbers thing could be part of it but doubt that is all of it. A strong bias to wood instruments is likely for any number of reasons. One thing not raised is whether carbon guitars have the stage presence desired? Gray carbon is predominate in Rainsongs offerings for years.
I have seen a couple regional artists with carbon guitars. Nothing on the national stage. I had purchased a rainsong and returned it once I viewed a pic of the same guitar in sunburnt. So I did an exchange. The guitar sounds identical but I do prefer the look over the black weave. Perhaps major artists feel the same way and perhaps now that there are options to cover the weave we will see more artists use the live.

I also think that an artist on the national stage can afford good wood guitars without concern of replacing them if damaged (unless they bring there prized guitar with them). They also might get great wood guitars free or get an artist discount.
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  #49  
Old 12-10-2014, 06:54 AM
Pick guard Pick guard is offline
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So if one needs to get away from the idea that carbon fiber guitars are made from plastic because it offends, (even though the epoxy used in laying up the carbon mesh is a type of plastic) then we could say simply this: people prefer wood guitars over their alternatives because they prefer real versus artificial.

As for performing artists, one might say the image of a real guitar is one they prefer to project versus the one a carbon fiber guitar does. Otherwise, why are carbon fiber manufacturers making some of their guitars with tops that look like the real thing? I've yet to see a wooden guitar wanting to look like they are made from carbon fiber.

Last edited by Pick guard; 12-10-2014 at 07:07 AM.
  #50  
Old 12-10-2014, 07:43 AM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick guard View Post
...I've yet to see a wooden guitar wanting to look like they are made from carbon fiber.


  #51  
Old 12-10-2014, 08:02 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Pick guard View Post
So if one needs to get away from the idea that carbon fiber guitars are made from plastic because it offends, (even though the epoxy used in laying up the carbon mesh is a type of plastic) then we could say simply this: people prefer wood guitars over their alternatives because they prefer real versus artificial.

As for performing artists, one might say the image of a real guitar is one they prefer to project versus the one a carbon fiber guitar does. Otherwise, why are carbon fiber manufacturers making some of their guitars with tops that look like the real thing? I've yet to see a wooden guitar wanting to look like they are made from carbon fiber.
Why is this important to you?

"Real vs artificial"... not intending to be derogatory? Pretty transparent. Couldn't go with the "living" bit, so now you're trying "real vs artificial." Pick up a carbon fiber guitar - it is a real guitar. If anyone missed your derogatory intent previously, it should be quite apparent with this post. The only artificial thing I see here is your made-up argument.

For a counter-point: when I was looking for a carbon fiber guitar, I went into a well-known chain guitar shop. The salesman I spoke with had heard of carbon fiber, but had never seen or played one. He said, "Let me show you this..." and took me to a black Martin HPL... "It LOOKS LIKE carbon fiber."



Guitar manufacturers offer different finishes and styling to appeal to a broader market. Martin does it. Taylor does it. Even exclusive luthiers do it. I would be surprised if your guitar (assuming you actually have and play a guitar) doesn't have some finish treatment. The only idea "one needs to get away from" is the consideration that your opinion carries any weight for those who appreciate options.

Why the childish tirade against carbon fiber? What do you expect to gain by the lame attempt to belittle another option?

You have nothing to fear from carbon fiber. No one is trying to force it on you. You might learn from that.

Jim

On edit: Ted, it seems that great, free-thinking minds do think alike. Sure beats being a part of a "traditional-herd mentality." LOL
  #52  
Old 12-10-2014, 08:10 AM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Love it Jim.

Ok, I know few read through an entire thread so I will say it again, the very simple answer, in my opinion, to the original question is the low numbers of units produced, and product placement. When, not if the big boys start building CF guitars you will see them in the hands of major artists.

And before the question is asked, again, the big boys have steered clear of CF not because there is no demand for what it has to offer, but because of the difficulty in building with it. A prime example of what might be a builder under estimating the difficulty of producing CF guitars is McPherson and their cool little Kevin Michael travel guitars. When introduced back in January the retail price was set at $2400, however by the time they started to trickle in late summer, the retail price was raised to $3200.

And yes, I do sell CF guitars, more than any other dealer in fact, but I am also a top dealer for most of the wood guitar builders in my signature. I love wood guitars, in fact I love wood, anyone who has ever been to our custom Martins and Taylor section can see that, but I also love what CF guitars bring to the table, and they can be quite beautiful in their own way. Were I a gigging guitarist with money for only one good guitar, it would in fact be a Rainsong, it's as simple as that.

Last edited by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales; 12-10-2014 at 08:15 AM.
  #53  
Old 12-10-2014, 08:33 AM
Pick guard Pick guard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
Why is this important to you?

"Real vs artificial"... not intending to be derogatory? Pretty transparent. Couldn't go with the "living" bit, so now you're trying "real vs artificial." Pick up a carbon fiber guitar - it is a real guitar. If anyone missed your derogatory intent previously, it should be quite apparent with this post. The only artificial thing I see here is your made-up argument.

For a counter-point: when I was looking for a carbon fiber guitar, I went into a well-known chain guitar shop. The salesman I spoke with had heard of carbon fiber, but had never seen or played one. He said, "Let me show you this..." and took me to a black Martin HPL... "It LOOKS LIKE carbon fiber."



Guitar manufacturers offer different finishes and styling to appeal to a broader market. Martin does it. Taylor does it. Even exclusive luthiers do it. I would be surprised if your guitar (assuming you actually have and play a guitar) doesn't have some finish treatment. The only idea "one needs to get away from" is the consideration that your opinion carries any weight for those who appreciate options.

Why the childish tirade against carbon fiber? What do you expect to gain by the lame attempt to belittle another option?

You have nothing to fear from carbon fiber. No one is trying to force it on you. You might learn from that.

Jim

On edit: Ted, it seems that great, free-thinking minds do think alike. Sure beats being a part of a "traditional-herd mentality." LOL
I'm simply responding to the original post as to "Why do few major artists play Carbon Fiber". I don't have anything personal against it, simply calling it as I see it. Not attacking you or any others who enjoy playing those kinds of guitars.

The "real vs artificial" seems appropriate, like comparing Christmas trees.
  #54  
Old 12-10-2014, 09:42 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick guard View Post
I'm simply responding to the original post as to "Why do few major artists play Carbon Fiber". I don't have anything personal against it, simply calling it as I see it. Not attacking you or any others who enjoy playing those kinds of guitars.

The "real vs artificial" seems appropriate, like comparing Christmas trees.
And, the "calling it as I see it" goes on. Now, we're comparing guitars to Christmas trees? I was OK with you putting down guitar options, but you've gone too far when you diss my Christmas tree!!!

I prefer to think of my Christmas tree as "composite", complete with fiber optic lighting! It is the modern option, better than the old wood ones we used to bring in the house. Besides the fact that my composite tree is more durable AND reusable, it doesn't shed needles all over the living room. No sap stains. I don't have to HYDRATE it (maybe this is more like guitars than I first considered??). No fuss, no muss.

When you reach out to touch it... it is REAL. Really. It has mass. We gather around it - sing, laugh, and share great times. Those times would not be better or worse with a messy DEAD tree that has to be thrown away or shoved into a wood chipper after only a few weeks of use. I LOVE my composite tree!

NOT attacking you or any others who enjoy a dead tree in their house.



Contrary to what you might think, I don't want to put any of my nice wood guitars in a wood chipper. I have no agenda, beyond making music. I haven't tried to convince you or anyone else that they should sell off their wood guitars because carbon fiber is the only REAL option. That would be rather closed-minded.

My mind is not closed. I don't feel I am a promoter of carbon fiber, but when people make lame, derogatory comments (as though their opinion is right, others are wrong), I sometimes feel the need to respond. Not always, mostly when what gets written is opinion, stated as fact. Or, just lame. Or, repetitive. Fortunately, I am retired, so I can take the time to stand up for "truth and justice." (I'll be right back, I have to get my cape. )

Enjoy your real dead tree. And your real dead wood guitar(s). In the spirit of this season, I really mean that. Real-ly. No disrespect meant - just calling it as I see it.

-------------------

The above post is tongue-in-cheek. No trees have been harmed in the making of this post. If any feelings have been hurt, it might be helpful to take any ridiculous opinions (yours, mine, anybody's) less serious. It seems appropriate.
  #55  
Old 12-10-2014, 12:20 PM
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CJ, he keeps baiting you and you keep biting bro. PG, you're behaving like a troll. We get it, you don't prefer CF guitars.
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  #56  
Old 12-10-2014, 01:01 PM
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CJ, he keeps baiting you and you keep biting bro. PG, you're behaving like a troll. We get it, you don't prefer CF guitars.
Hi Bob,

And here I thought we were having some fun. OK, maybe it is a little mean to have a "battle of wits" with an unarmed kid, but I thought we could make this an educational experience to show what happens when one behaves like a brat in public. I'll stop poking at the troll.

I really do like my Christmas tree, though.

My real hand is extended in friendship. And now, I'll stop responding to him.

Best wishes,
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  #57  
Old 12-10-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pick guard View Post
So if one needs to get away from the idea that carbon fiber guitars are made from plastic because it offends, (even though the epoxy used in laying up the carbon mesh is a type of plastic) then we could say simply this: people prefer wood guitars over their alternatives because they prefer real versus artificial . . .
Just wondering what brand guitar you use that allows you to touch "real wood" (dead as it may be)? I thought wood guitars were entirely covered with plastic except the fretboard? Isn't it true that all you ever really touch is plastic? And the nice gloss or satin you see is just . . . plastic?

If I'm not mistaken, a fair number of Martins don't even use wood for the fretboard any more. So I'm curious which "all wood", "no plastic" guitar you like the best, model and make? I'd love to get my hands on one and try it sometime.
  #58  
Old 12-10-2014, 04:39 PM
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I think one other issue with CF instruments is cost. Several years ago I had a chance to try out Peter Mix's prototype CF mandolins. They were nice, to me not too attractive, played well. I did feel that there was a harsh edge to the sound I didn't care for. At the time, maybe 2007(?), the A styles priced out at $3500 and the F's were $1000 more. Even understanding the difficulty in manufacturing them, no one who saw them or played them bought one then or subsequently although some bought traditional wood instruments costing as much or more.

Might be an expectation, perhaps an unreasonable one, that these things should sell for much less than wood.
  #59  
Old 12-10-2014, 05:11 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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...Might be an expectation, perhaps an unreasonable one, that these things should sell for much less than wood.
I think anyone who knows anything about carbon fiber also knows products made with it are expensive. I've owned sporting equipment, a bike, knives, even a rifle built using CF and every one of these items was twice as expensive as their counterpart using traditional materials. CF is light, resonant, and super strong, it just might be the perfect material for guitars.

As for cost, a Rainsong DR1000N2 is about the same price as a Martin D-28, in my opinion that makes the Rainsong a genuine bargain.
  #60  
Old 12-10-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SprintBob View Post
CJ, he keeps baiting you and you keep biting bro. PG, you're behaving like a troll. We get it, you don't prefer CF guitars.
No, he doesn't acknowledge carbon fiber guitars exist, only plastic guitars. He doesn't understand the difference between carbon fiber and plastic.

I assume he prefers a horse hide guitar, or maybe a titebond one. The actual material that is used is obviously irrelevant to the glue that is used.
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