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  #46  
Old 12-10-2013, 02:29 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Great insight Doubleneck. I really like that post! Based on that information guitars made from wood pulp (albeit stronger than CF) still have a major enemy in H20. It would be interesting to see and, more importantly, hear, a guitar made from this product though.

All in all maybe it's best to just be open minded on this topic. Materials, sound, aesthetic, and whatever else under the sun is ENTIRELY subjective. If I write a song on the guitar- it doesn't really matter what the guitar sounds like or what it's made of: when it hits the ears of the listener THAT is what is most important- that you've shared your heart with them, blessed them, a created a melody for them to chew on. If you can do that (especially making money at it and with lasting musical memory that survives the next decade of music/ art nuevo) you are successful. Right?
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  #47  
Old 12-10-2013, 02:41 PM
martind42 martind42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
It very interesting stuff ironically it biggest enemy is water! They will probably have to seal it in some paint?

From a practical point of view the extra strength is wasted, carbon fiber now is stronger than a instrument really requires. If they produce it cheap that would be the ticket!


"But cellulose contains hydroxyl (OH) groups which protrude laterally along the cellulose molecule. These can form hydrogen bonds with water molecules, resulting in cellulose being hydrophilic (a drop of water will tend to spread across the cellulose surface). Given enough water, cellulose will become engorged with water, swelling to nearly double its dry volume.

Swelling introduces a large number of nano-defects in the cellulose structure. Although there is little swelling of a single CNC, water can penetrate into amorphous cellulose with ease, pushing apart the individual cellulose molecules in those regions. In addition, the bonds and interfaces between neighboring CNC will be disrupted, thereby significantly reducing the strength of any material reinforced with CNCs. To make matters worse, water can move easily over the surface/interfaces of the CNCs, thereby allowing water to penetrate far into a composite containing CNCs."
Yes, the point is there will ALWAYS be some new wonder material people will want to try on various applications such as guitars, baseball bats, bedpans, whatever. Nothing wrong with it, just don't expect a mad rush to embrace it simply because it's new or waterproof or whatever. Just like there's never going to be a mad rush of people ditching their guitars and banjos for a guitjo out of convenience.
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  #48  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:36 PM
new2guitar_eh new2guitar_eh is offline
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A number of people have commented on the cost of CF, and that is certainly something I am struggling with. Its kind of a chicken/egg situation....make the CF guitars cheaper to pull more people into the fold, or wait until the interest in CF grows enough to enable cheaper production and lower prices. I vote for make them cheaper to pull more people in
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  #49  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by new2guitar_eh View Post
A number of people have commented on the cost of CF, and that is certainly something I am struggling with. Its kind of a chicken/egg situation…..make the CF guitars cheaper to pull more people into the fold, or wait until the interest in CF grows enough to enable cheaper production and lower prices. I vote for make them cheaper to pull more people in
I think that may have been the strategy of the original Composite Acoustics, and although CA guitars weren't cheap, they were underpriced and likely contributed to their downfall, thankfully resurrected by Peavey who recognized how good Ellis' designs were/are. I can't speak to most brands, but Emerald may present the best value for what you get. Unfortunately, I don't think CF builders can produce much cheaper without threatening their survivability.
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  #50  
Old 12-10-2013, 04:02 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I question if cheaper comes anytime soon, wood is cheap and makes a good guitar. A Chinese connection hasn't emerged yet but that may be the only way, and still Chinese wood guitars will be cheaper.
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  #51  
Old 12-10-2013, 11:04 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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I think that as long as we are talking carbon fiber guitars the street price will have to be well above $1000 for any manufacturer to thrive, but there is definitely a market for less expensive versions of CF guitars so look for guitars made with other, less expensive materials in the future. Blackbird is experimenting with a new material but I think it's more about tonal improvement than keeping the cost down.
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  #52  
Old 12-10-2013, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
I think that as long as we are talking carbon fiber guitars the street price will have to be well above $1000 for any manufacturer to thrive, but there is definitely a market for less expensive versions of CF guitars so look for guitars made with other, less expensive materials in the future. Blackbird is experimenting with a new material but I think it's more about tonal improvement than keeping the cost down.
Hopefully, such materials won't compromise current CF attributes.
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  #53  
Old 12-10-2013, 11:30 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Hopefully, such materials won't compromise current CF attributes.
If they do they wont sell, it's as simple as that. BTW, the current price of $2000 give or take for an all carbon fiber guitar, about the same as a Martin D-18 or Taylor 510 is quite fair in my opinion.
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  #54  
Old 12-11-2013, 01:02 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
If they do they wont sell, it's as simple as that. BTW, the current price of $2000 give or take for an all carbon fiber guitar, about the same as a Martin D-18 or Taylor 510 is quite fair in my opinion.
I don't disagree to me they are a bargain for what they are. If you look at other CF instruments like violins, cellos, they are more than twice the cost of CF guitars.
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  #55  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:18 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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I don't disagree to me they are a bargain for what they are. If you look at other CF instruments like violins, cellos, they are more than twice the cost of CF guitars.
Look up some of my posts from the past regarding CA and you'll see that I was told they lost money on ever Cargo they ever sold. IMO even the new, higher prices for the Cargo and the OX are too low. One of the problems is perception, some folks think that wood should cost more than CF and many more think a small guitar should be priced lower than the full size version. Both theories or nonsense of course but some builder find it hard to ignore these misguided opinions which is why we had $750 Cargos, and still have $600 Emeralds factory direct. When Ashvin and I were discussing the possibility of a Rainsong Parlor, the second most difficult job I had after convincing him to build the thing, was to assure him that folks would be willing to pay the same for a Parlor as they would for a Shorty.

So what would it take for CF guitars to become more mainstream? Marketing.
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  #56  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:38 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Look up some of my posts from the past regarding CA and you'll see that I was told they lost money on ever Cargo they ever sold. IMO even the new, higher prices for the Cargo and the OX are too low. One of the problems is perception, some folks think that wood should cost more than CF and many more think a small guitar should be priced lower than the full size version. Both theories or nonsense of course but some builder find it hard to ignore these misguided opinions which is why we had $750 Cargos, and still have $600 Emeralds factory direct. When Ashvin and I were discussing the possibility of a Rainsong Parlor, the second most difficult job I had after convincing him to build the thing, was to assure him that folks would be willing to pay the same for a Parlor as they would for a Shorty.

So what would it take for CF guitars to become more mainstream? Marketing.
Education as well, carbon fiber in bicycles, golf clubs, tennis rackets and people think premium high cost product, in guitar not quite the same?

Talk about marketing what did Ovation do to convince people that their guitars made sense, got Glen Campbell to play the exclusively. Made me buy one! Carbon company's don't have the deep pockets of Charles Kaman.
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  #57  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:42 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Education as well, carbon fiber in bicycles, golf clubs, tennis rackets and people think premium high cost product, in guitar not quite the same?
Marketing is educating the buying public.
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  #58  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:51 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Marketing is educating the buying public.
Very true, I think it hurts that you don't see major stars with carbon hanging around them.
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  #59  
Old 12-11-2013, 02:04 PM
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Very true, I think it hurts that you don't see major stars with carbon hanging around them.
Marketing only works to a point. If the dogs don't eat the dog food, no amount of marketing will change that.
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  #60  
Old 12-11-2013, 03:37 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Marketing only works to a point...
..all the way to the point of getting the guitars in the hands of potential buyers. But you are right that after that the guitar needs to take over the sales pitch so you do have to start with a good product. As for celebrities playing the guitars, whether they are being paid or chose to play the guitars, it's just another form of marketing.
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