Acoustic Amp for an Electric Guitar?

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by Paleolith54

If he'd plugged straight in, he'd have still had crappy tone because the problem was his ears, not his gear. Which is my point; you can get good tones from the rig the OP asked about, and bad ones from a tube amp. I'd think that would be pretty obvious by now, as even mid-level modelers are being used these days by touring pros. Like Nita Strauss, who seems to get by quite well on her solo tours with a Boss unit.

Hmm, well - if you are capable of getting good tone through a modeler you would have to be trying to sound bad to get bad tones through a tube amp unless it had defective tube(s). Hard to get bad tone from a great amp IMO.

[perttime]

Originally Posted by roylor4

...
Second, I am not anti modeler, as I own and use a Tech 21 Flyrig and decent tones can definitely be had from it, though it sounds far better through my tube or hybrid amps and used as a stompbox than through my pa. It does many things well through the PA though.
....

I dont think Tech21 does modelers (Digital Sound Processing).

I'm pretty sure their gear is all analog and the Flyrig is basically a few normal stompboxes in one larger box, together with a speaker emulation cirquit.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by perttime

I dont think Tech21 does modelers (Digital Sound Processing).

I'm pretty sure their gear is all analog and the Flyrig is basically a few normal stompboxes in one larger box, together with a speaker emulation cirquit.

Splitting hairs here. It's a small box trying to do what an amp does, right? Same difference to me. YMMV

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by roylor4

Okay. First, you clearly have more experience on modeling through a wider variety of options than I do, so I will not argue against tried and true experience, as it's an exercise in futility.

Second, I am not anti modeler, as I own and use a Tech 21 Flyrig and decent tones can definitely be had from it, though it sounds far better through my tube or hybrid amps and used as a stompbox than through my pa. It does many things well through the PA though.

Third - When you start getting into modelers in the $500 and up category, why not just get a good amp? If you are a gigging musician, a small, compact modeler's advantage is quickly demonstrated in efficiency of setup, breakdown, load-in and load-out and consistency of tone. All of these advantages become kind of moot if you are home player and want great tone. There is no cost advantage between a mid-level modeler and a decent amp, but there is a HUGE difference in ease of use (IMO). I tried the Pod Go and it went back after 2 &1/2 days of fiddling and endless tweaking. With a good tube amp, the gratification of good tone is just a few seconds away and only really requires some basic knowledge and a good ear.

So perhaps the OP CAN get really good tones through his amp, but is the process and cost worth it to get there? To me it wouldn't be. As for the OP - I reckon only he can decide that....

It's funny that I am defending modelers as I typically love killer vintage and boutique amps, but I think modelers have their place, and for the OP I definately think one would work for him.

Although the Flyrig is good piece of equipment that sounds great when used as a front end to an amp. For that they are pretty good. But I think the modeling/speaker emulation DI is more of an afterthought on it. They were originally designed to be fly rig that you could plug into a backline amplifier. I haven't played through the later versions, but the sansamp emulation TC incorporated into them never really did it for me as as DI, I felt they were limited in their emulation. I owned an original sansamp and I always fought with it.

The question about why get into a modeler for home is a good one. And to tell you the truth, I would have NEVER even tried one until I started recording more at home. I wanted to get tones that would sustain with some grit at a reasonable volume. And many times I like to play and record at night while my girl is sleeping in the room next door. I tried the ZOOM G3X, which I still have, and I liked the Fender amp tones I could get with that, and then I tried the Digitech RP360 and that was great for more more Marshall style stuff. Like anything else, you have to put the time into them to figure out how to get the best out of them. The other day, I was trying to program a VOX AC15 tone from scratch with my Helix, and although it as an actual amp that I own (mine is the AC15HW), it still took me a while. The Helix brings new things into amp modeling like SAG, Hum, Bias, Ripple, etc.
But these new modelers are incredible, I've plugged them straight into recorders, full size PAs and acoustic amps, and have gotten great results with all of them.

This is true...

Sometimes I was just too lazy to grab an amp when an acoustic amp was sitting right next to me, so I would plug the modeler into it, and after I while I figured out you could get a good tone with it. As I'm typing this I have a Schertler JAM 200 sitting 5 feet away from that I plan on rehearsing my acoustic set with.

And another reason why I like them is that in my studio I can record a rhythm track with one while recording a drum set with live microphones without having that track bleed into the drum mics. Though lately I've been using amp modeling software instead an actual modeler. The software sounds just about the same as a good modeler it just reduces the process by one less piece of equipment.

As for the cost issue...

The cost of decent amp that can do what a modeler can do in the terms of versatility is pretty high. A decent modeler can get Fender, Marshall, Vox tones, along with many other FX, and a decent amp would be hard pressed to do that. You would have to have pedals to do that kind of a thing with an inexpensive amp.

Something like a used Digitech RP360 or a ZOOM G3X can be had cheap, and before I got my Helix Stomp, I came up with some great tones with them, so not as expensive as you would think. You can find them all day long for between $100 to $200 in excellent to mint condition. And my brother, a very good guitarist (he got signed to a major label at 18 years old), still prefers his Zoom G3X to a Helix Stomp that he's been auditioning.

Here is a nice demo and the guy doing it talks about direct recording with his G3X using amp modeling. Anything that sounds good as a direct recording device will sound good sterile flat studio monitors through an acoustic amp...



Another issue is the space matter. If you already own a few good acoustic amps why garbage up the room with another amp if it's not needed. In my studio I have so many amps up there, that I'm tripping over them (1964 Deluxe Reverb, 1968 Fender Vibro Champ, 1962 Ampeg Mercury, Victoria Regal, TopHat Club Deluxe, Marshall 18 Watt, Vox AC15HW1, Clark Beaufort, etc). And frankly, setting each one up to find the perfect tone is kind of a hassle, so using a modeler to figure out what tone would work for a song is great. Then I can bring out the real amp if I have to get that bonafide specific tone, but many times the modeled tones will more than suffice.

I'm not saying great tube amps don't have their place, but home usage is not their ideal place, most of the time they are just too loud to get them into their zone. And the smaller wattage ones with smaller speakers to me sound just too compressed and flubby on the low end.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

It's funny that I am defending modelers as I typically love killer vintage and boutique amps, but I think modelers have their place, and for the OP I definately think one would work for him.

Although the Flyrig is good piece of equipment that sounds great when used as a front end to an amp. For that they are pretty good. But I think the modeling/speaker emulation DI is more of an afterthought on it. They were originally designed to be fly rig that you could plug into a backline amplifier. I haven't played through the later versions, but the sansamp emulation TC incorporated into them never really did it for me as as DI, I felt they were limited in their emulation. I owned an original sansamp and I always fought with it.

The question about why get into a modeler for home is a good one. And to tell you the truth, I would have NEVER even tried one until I started recording more at home. I wanted to get tones that would sustain with some grit at a reasonable volume. And many times I like to play and record at night while my girl is sleeping in the room next door. I tried the ZOOM G3X, which I still have, and I liked the Fender amp tones I could get with that, and then I tried the Digitech RP360 and that was great for more more Marshall style stuff. Like anything else, you have to put the time into them to figure out how to get the best out of them. The other day, I was trying to program a VOX AC15 tone from scratch with my Helix, and although it as an actual amp that I own (mine is the AC15HW), it still took me a while. The Helix brings new things into amp modeling like SAG, Hum, Bias, Ripple, etc.
But these new modelers are incredible, I've plugged them straight into recorders, full size PAs and acoustic amps, and have gotten great results with all of them.

This is true...

Sometimes I was just too lazy to grab an amp when an acoustic amp was sitting right next to me, so I would plug the modeler into it, and after I while I figured out you could get a good tone with it. As I'm typing this I have a Schertler JAM 200 sitting 5 feet away from that I plan on rehearsing my acoustic set with.

And another reason why I like them is that in my studio I can record a rhythm track with one while recording a drum set with live microphones without having that track bleed into the drum mics. Though lately I've been using amp modeling software instead an actual modeler. The software sounds just about the same as a good modeler it just reduces the process by one less piece of equipment.

As for the cost issue...

The cost of decent amp that can do what a modeler can do in the terms of versatility is pretty high. A decent modeler can get Fender, Marshall, Vox tones, along with many other FX, and a decent amp would be hard pressed to do that. You would have to have pedals to do that kind of a thing with an inexpensive amp.

Something like a used Digitech RP360 or a ZOOM G3X can be had cheap, and before I got my Helix Stomp, I came up with some great tones with them, so not as expensive as you would think. You can find them all day long for between $100 to $200 in excellent to mint condition. And my brother, a very good guitarist (he got signed to a major label at 18 years old), still prefers his Zoom G3X to a Helix Stomp that he's been auditioning.

Here is a nice demo and the guy doing it talks about direct recording with his G3X using amp modeling. Anything that sounds good as a direct recording device will sound good sterile flat studio monitors through an acoustic amp...


Another issue is the space matter. If you already own a few good acoustic amps why garbage up the room with another amp if it's not needed. In my studio I have so many amps up there, that I'm tripping over them (1964 Deluxe Reverb, 1968 Fender Vibro Champ, 1962 Ampeg Mercury, Victoria Regal, TopHat Club Deluxe, Marshall 18 Watt, Vox AC15HW1, Clark Beaufort, etc). And frankly, setting each one up to find the perfect tone is kind of a hassle, so using a modeler to figure out what tone would work for a song is great. Then I can bring out the real amp if I have to get that bonafide specific tone, but many times the modeled tones will more than suffice.

I'm not saying great tube amps don't have their place, but home usage is not their ideal place, most of the time they are just too loud to get them into their zone. And the smaller wattage ones with smaller speakers to me sound just too compressed and flubby on the low end.

All this is valid. I do see the place for modelers but I hate twiddling with things. I saw your post about all your guitars and the extensive mods that you have done and it made me laugh. We are definitely cut from a different cloth in that way, though I have done some minor work on most of my guitars. I am largely a "set it and forget it" kinda guy.

Many other high level players like Bob Womack also espouse the benefits of modelers and use them with an expertise I will never have.

I would not consider myself a luddite, but I'm definitely a bit more in the "old school" realm with stuff. I'm also old, stubborn and set in my ways. In addition to that, I'm a bit lucky insomuch that I live in the country and can turn my amps up as loud as I like and I like them loud. My wife is my duo partner, and she likes to get loud too. I'm definitely guilty of thinking that EVERYONE can do that whenever they want, which I know is patently untrue. We also have a sizable living room and it is our rehearsal space too - it looks as much like a music store as a living room, honestly.

I don't do any recordings straight into the computer - partly because I don't really know how but mostly because I just like throwing a mic in front of stuff and am reasonably competent at it.

As for the Sansamp, I do think that they have improved their emulation, as it does sound pretty convincing through the PA. Surprisingly, the Plexi setting absolute kills through the PA. The cleans are also very good. The only tone I don't really like is "the edge of breakup" kind of tone, which sounds very artificial to me.

I actually used a G1Xon for live gigs for a couple of years. Cheap, sturdy and reliable with some decent tones on tap (if you play w/it enough).

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by roylor4

All this is valid. I do see the place for modelers but I hate twiddling with things. I saw your post about all your guitars and the extensive mods that you have done and it made me laugh. We are definitely cut from a different cloth in that way, though I have done some minor work on most of my guitars. I am largely a "set it and forget it" kinda guy.

Many other high level players like Bob Womack also espouse the benefits of modelers and use them with an expertise I will never have.

I would not consider myself a luddite, but I'm definitely a bit more in the "old school" realm with stuff. I'm also old, stubborn and set in my ways. In addition to that, I'm a bit lucky insomuch that I live in the country and can turn my amps up as loud as I like and I like them loud. My wife is my duo partner, and she likes to get loud too. I'm definitely guilty of thinking that EVERYONE can do that whenever they want, which I know is patently untrue. We also have a sizable living room and it is our rehearsal space too - it looks as much like a music store as a living room, honestly.

I don't do any recordings straight into the computer - partly because I don't really know how but mostly because I just like throwing a mic in front of stuff and am reasonably competent at it.

As for the Sansamp, I do think that they have improved their emulation, as it does sound pretty convincing through the PA. Surprisingly, the Plexi setting absolute kills through the PA. The cleans are also very good. The only tone I don't really like is "the edge of breakup" kind of tone, which sounds very artificial to me.

I actually used a G1Xon for live gigs for a couple of years. Cheap, sturdy and reliable with some decent tones on tap (if you play w/it enough).

Living in the country has it's benefits

And "the edge of breakup" is where I live, to me that's where an amp shows it's true colors. And to me that's the hardest thing to emulate. Heavy distortion tones are a walk in the park, and there are plenty of good modelers that can do the clean Fender thing.

And yes I am a serial modder. I used to do guitar repair to supplement my income, and in doing that, I learned a lot of little tricks that made guitars work better for the types of tones I chase. My brother, the guitarist laughs at me because every one of his guitars are bone stock.

[Denandannie]

Now that I've read 20 posts to thoroughly confuse me, I should add that the tone I seek is to start with a clean tone and then add some reverb and chorus. I generally play bluessy type religeous hymns. NO destortion or overdrive. That's why I thought that using either of my acoustic amps might work with my style of playing.

I think I'll buy the electric and try it thru my acoustics. If it works, then fine. If not I'll go with a lower priced Marshall as I like the tone my Marshall AS50D gives me.

Thank you all for advice.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by Denandannie

Now that I've read 20 posts to thoroughly confuse me, I should add that the tone I seek is to start with a clean tone and then add some reverb and chorus. I generally play bluessy type religeous hymns. NO destortion or overdrive. That's why I thought that using either of my acoustic amps might work with my style of playing.

I think I'll buy the electric and try it thru my acoustics. If it works, then fine. If not I'll go with a lower priced Marshall as I like the tone my Marshall AS50D gives me.

Thank you all for advice.

A good game plan. Let us know how it turns out.

[Paleolith54]

Originally Posted by Denandannie

Now that I've read 20 posts to thoroughly confuse me, I should add that the tone I seek is to start with a clean tone and then add some reverb and chorus. I generally play bluessy type religeous hymns. NO destortion or overdrive. That's why I thought that using either of my acoustic amps might work with my style of playing.

I think I'll buy the electric and try it thru my acoustics. If it works, then fine. If not I'll go with a lower priced Marshall as I like the tone my Marshall AS50D gives me.

Thank you all for advice.

It'll work just fine.

[perttime]

Originally Posted by roylor4

Splitting hairs here. It's a small box trying to do what an amp does, right? Same difference to me. YMMV

MMIDD (My Mileage Indeed Does Differ) Same thing if you dont want to use terms that everybody else uses. If you are not using a helicopter, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are using a Volvo.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by perttime

...If you are not using a helicopter, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are using a Volvo.

"Mi tío esta enfermo, pero la carretera esta verde" (My uncle is sick, but the highway is green) - Mad magazine, 1963

[phcorrigan]

My experience is limited both with electric guitars and amps. Having said that, I went through 2 modelers*, a new Fender Mustang and a used Line 6, before I took Steve's advice and bought a Bugera V22 Infinium. I have no regrets. On the other hand, a friend recently bought a Fender Mustang GTX100 that he's very happy with.

*Three including a Yamaha THR10C, which I still have but very rarely use.

[Paleolith54]

Originally Posted by perttime

MMIDD (My Mileage Indeed Does Differ) Same thing if you dont want to use terms that everybody else uses. If you are not using a helicopter, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are using a Volvo.

Exactly. A post from Andrew Barta a few years back:

"The term "modeling" as it used today for our purposes did not exist as far as I can recall in 1989 when the SansAmp was first introduced.The difference between analog emulation and digital is that we are using an actual circuit and components to "emulate" a specific sound vs digital modeling that uses a computer algorithm. One of the benefits is that there is no A/D converters so the integrity of your signal is not changed and there is no latency. The flip side is that with digital they can offer numerous variations in a very small economical package (ie different amp models efx etc) as all that needs to change is the internal math vs building more circuitry."

This is consistent with, for example, how Fender was very careful to refer to the ultimately unsuccessful CyberDeluxe circuitry as emulation, not modeling, as they wanted to separate themselves from the prevalent anti-digital processing bias at that time.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by perttime

I dont think Tech21 does modelers (Digital Sound Processing).

I'm pretty sure their gear is all analog and the Flyrig is basically a few normal stompboxes in one larger box, together with a speaker emulation cirquit.

Again, this statement is incorrect. It is not a series of stompboxes with a speaker emulation. It contains 3 different amp models within it. A Fender, a Plexi and a California boutique amp. It may not be digital, but it does contain different amp models within it.

If that doesn't fit into your precise box of being a "modeler", that's fine. I still consider it a modeler. I'll bask in my own ignorance and you can revel in the fact that you corrected someone that doesn't know what they are talking about and won't listen to your sage wisdom either. Have a good one.

[fwphoto]

I have a Genz-Benz Shenandoah 85 with a speaker selection switch on the back. If I eliminate the tweeter it can function as a pretty good, *clean* electric amp. Add some pedals (or whatever) & it's off to the races!

Does your Genzler have that ability to turn off the tweeter?

All that said, when I eventually did add an electric to my herd (Epi es339), I got a small tube amp to go with it. I love my Bugera V5 Infinium, especially after I switched out the speaker for an Eminence Patriot & replaced the OEM tubes for premium ones. World of difference! Turned a nice budget tube amp into a mini boutique amp! All for under $300! Oh, & way better sounding for electric IMO than the Genz-Benz, as competent as it is.

Frank