Is the CEO-7 the right guitar for me? What other options with these specs?

[Kyle215]

Agree with others the CEO-7 would probably be a great fit for you. I picked up a used one last summer, so the adi top is pretty well broken in at this point, and it sounds like a much larger guitar. Big, deep voice with nice punch.

I’d just note that it’s really closer to a 000 in size than a 00, but the slope shoulder design makes it “feel” smaller.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by big jilm

Hi everyone -

I find myself looking for a new guitar after (slowly, very slowly) figuring out what my hands like in an acoustic guitar. Over the last couple of years, I have learned that my hands don't cramp up on a fat necked guitar. After buying a Richie Kotzen Telecaster, it became clear to me that even though I do not have huge hands, the big neck is far more comfortable to me. The Kotzen neck is about .91" at the first fret, and moves up to nearly 1.00" or so at the 12th.

For context, I love my 000-15m: The sound, the size. My issues with it are that the nut spacing is a bit narrow, and the neck isn't fat enough. I love the body size of my Taylor GS Mini, though the string spacing and scale are too small for full time playing.

What I (think) I'm looking for:
1. Ideally, a 00 that sounds bigger than it looks - if I can't find it, 000 is OK, but I would love to get into the 00 camp size wise if I find one that doesn't sound boxy.
2. Mahogany back and sides. I sing with a low voice, and the mahogany guitars always seem to compliment my voice better than rosewood.
3. 1 3/4" nut width. I need it.
4. A bigger neck! The neck on my 000-15m isn't fat enough. Martin mod V?
5. Tone: I am looking for a guitar with a strong fundamental note and not tons of overtones. Good for singing over. Not dull and thunky, but not bright and ringy like an HD-28 sounds to me.
6. Scale: Not a deal breaker either way, but I would love to get into a shorter scale guitar. I play blues a lot, and play lead lines with a lot of bent notes.
7. I use a capo a lot, if that matters here. I have a very low voice without a big range, so I change the key of songs often, and I capo up to the 5th fret. I don't know if mentioning this matters or not, but here it is.

How I play:
I use a pick most of the time but I do not strum very hard. Thick picks (BC TD 50's) and Retro Monels sound good to me, again, not strummed very hard. I pick fairly delicately. I do some flatpicking, and hybrid picking, and also fingerstyle (not often, though).

I play blues, folk, country, Americana, classic rock. Harp in a rack.

This led me to doing a bunch of reading and YouTubing. The CEO-7 looks great to me. 00 body that people say does not sound boxy, mahogany body tone (or sipo I guess), thicker neck, 1 3/4" nut. The guitar sounds very good in the YouTube demos, too. Warm and rich, not boxy.

Am I on the right track here? What else might I look at that shares these characteristics? Thanks a bunch for reading this, if you have gotten this far.

I'm no expert on modern guitar models. Most of mine are older guitars I've held onto as they generally suit my purposes. I too like bigger necks, though I can tolerate less thick necks within reason.

If you hadn't mentioned the CEO7, I would have expected it to be one of the first things suggested. I'm not trying to steer you away from that as a strong candidate. I haven't actually played one, but I like my 00-15's sound even though I get grumpy about the neck nut width and I'd prefer a thicker profile too. I've never experienced a V neck to my knowledge, as mentioned above they seem to be something liked and loathed by different players.

Now I expect like a lot of folks here shopping, you're looking to spend roughly as much as you can afford to "Level up your sound." My suggestion for a possible candidate will come out of left field and I hesitate to make it, as it may not be in line with your goals.

I learned to love chunky necks by playing my old Seagulls. They're not a V profile (could be a plus if you find you don't like V necks) but in width and thickness they are right there. Most of the older models are shorter scale. I'm almost entirely a flat picker, not usually a heavy strummer. Cedar tops matched with the laminated cherry B&S are commonly present. I find this gives a sweet fundamental tone. Responsive within their dynamic range* even though the cedar topped ones don't like heavy strumming. Though less common, there are also models with different woods than the classic cedar and laminated wild cherry.

My workhorse guitar continues to be a 20th century Seagull Folk, a 00 deep body model with cedar/laminated wild cherry.

The modern Seagulls I've played briefly in stores don't check all the boxes I've outlined above. But there are a goodly number of the "vintage" ones out there at bargain basement prices.

Good luck on your search.


*By this I mean, when some folks talk "dynamic range" they mean that it won't compress or sound lousy when strummed hard. What I mean is that there's lot of nice sound variety in the soft-quiet to medium-attack range in mine. You mention wanting to avoid "boxy" -- which in another recent thread there means different things to different people. Playing a guitar harder than it wants to be played can produce a quality that can be called boxy.

[dirkronk]

Originally Posted by KevinH

I think you're on the right track with either a CEO-7 or a 00-18V.

This. ^^^^
I'm paying attention to your question, big jilm, because I'm in much the same boat so far as what I'd like to find myself. I actually DID find it a few years back, but didn't feel like I could afford it at the time. The answer, I fear, is an old tried-and-true one (and raysachs has already expressed it): you HAVE to actually play the guitar you're going to buy.

Reason I say this? Years ago, I was in my local guitar shop, Guitar Tex here in San Antonio, and the guys put a Martin 00-18v in my hands. I plucked the G string and it resonated with an absolutely beautiful tone and did so for a length of time I normally associate with rosewood, not mahogany...yet it still had that fundamental clarity I wanted in a singing companion. In a word: magic. The neck, nut, fingerspacing, body size and feel were all perfect...only the price gave me pause. What happened, though, is that I paid attention to every 00-18v I saw, new or used, from then on. Found some good ones, found some disappointing ones, but none with the same magic. Gave each one that "G string" resonance test, and none came up to the original experience. Shoulda found a way to buy that very first one.
So...something similar happened when they got in their first CEO-7 at Guitar Tex. Not as dramatic, but a LOT of things sounded and felt really right. And in trying others over the years since, examples of that guitar seem more consistently impressive. Just my reaction, of course.
Me, now that I'm retired and feeling better about spending more that a few hundred on an instrument, I'm thinking of going back on a hunt for the magic.

FWIW...my reactions to some alternative guitars mentioned:
Waterloo...while I've admired almost every Collings I've played, their Waterloo instruments do absolutely nothing for me at all. My reaction to three that I played over a year ago (2 ladder braced, 1 x braced) at nearby Lark Guitars here was, "feels, looks and sounds like a $30 guitar from my youth...but they're asking thousands?" My feeling MAY have been due to an apparent lack of set-up on the shop's part...I'm spoiled to the care Guitar Tex takes in prepping products before putting them on the floor. YMMV, of course, depending on where you shop.

Smaller Santa Cruz models (H or 1929) would be, alas, beyond your budget...mine too. I reserve the right to drool, however.
I've played Huss & Dalton small bodies that impressed me as much or more, and for less money, but my experience (again at Guitar Tex) was years back and I know those guitars have only gone up in price. But if you see one used, pay close attention.

Originally Posted by KevinH

You might also consider an Eastman if you like chunky necks, though I'm not sure it would pass your tone requirement.

Years back, when another local shop (Redbone Guitar Boutique) was near my house, they carried Eastman and I fell in love with the feel of an E20P. Neck fit my hand perfectly, great sound, easy fingerpicking, but it was a rosewood model and they never got in a mahogany version (E10P) for me to try. Sad, because it was basically 0 size yet had a remarkably big sound; was hoping the hog version would be similar. Same thing happened when Eastman came out with their traditional 00 12-frets...no E10-00 ever showed up, just the rosewood model (and the other 00 in their line, the E10-00ss, had a too-skinny nut). However, if you're OK with 12-fret models and have access to an Eastman dealer in Houston, check it out.

Originally Posted by KevinH

Best to let your ears decide.

Best advice on the thread.

But best of luck to you in your quest! I'll be following this thread to check up on you. Maybe whatever you end up with will inspire me to let loose of some guitar-buying cash myself (at long last). Meanwhile, greetings from 200 miles west of you.

Dirk

[TDavis]

If I had the money...I'd do a Custom Shop order for a CEO-7 with a MLO neck carve instead of the Mod-V that the stock guitar comes with. I love the CEO-7 tone...but I personally can't handle the neck shape. I love the standard 00-18 too, but the CEO-7 is a dang cannon compared to it. Come to think of it...I'll bet the neck shape adds a lot to the tonality.

[buddyhu]

Given your ideal price and other requirements, a CEO 7 would seem to be a fine choice. The others mentioned (Waterloo, Eastman, Martin 00-18, Gibby LG2) are worth a try.

If you want to spend closer to (or slightly above) your $3K max, a used Santa Cruz or Collings (an 00, or a C10-35) might be within reach, especially if it is player’s grade.

Enjoy your search!

[Perchman]

I agree with Mick: You’re describing a Gibson LG-2.

[db25364]

I wanted to love the CEO-7 but they all seemed to disappoint. I ended up with a 00-18V that is my all time favorite guitar.

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by jontewright

I’d add a Waterloo WLK-14 to that list. 00, short scale, 1 3/4 nut, 2 3/8 string spacing and comes with the option of a nice beefy V neck.
I’ve got one with the slimmer neck(still quite chunky but not a vintage V) however since I acquired that one I’ve also added a Waterloo jumbo king to my collection and that does have the vintage V neck and I find actually prefer it to the ‘slimmer’ neck option.

I've owned both a CEO7 and a WL (though not K) 14. I'd take the Waterloo any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by db25364

I wanted to love the CEO-7 but they all seemed to disappoint. I ended up with a 00-18V that is my all time favorite guitar.

I didn’t like the CEO 7 either. Don’t much like the newer LG2’s (and similar models) or the newer 00-18’s (really liked an older one, but it was $7K). So I bought a used Collings C10-35 (at a great price) with a torrefied top. It is sweet.

I wish i could find a really old LG 2 without issues that I could afford. But, “If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.”

[big jilm]

Originally Posted by Kyle215

Agree with others the CEO-7 would probably be a great fit for you. I picked up a used one last summer, so the adi top is pretty well broken in at this point, and it sounds like a much larger guitar. Big, deep voice with nice punch.

Nice to know! One of the things that attracts me to the CEO-7 is that folks say it sounds larger than it is. I want to avoid too much "smallness" while still having z smaller guitar. Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I learned to love chunky necks by playing my old Seagulls. They're not a V profile (could be a plus if you find you don't like V necks) but in width and thickness they are right there. Most of the older models are shorter scale. I'm almost entirely a flat picker, not usually a heavy strummer. Cedar tops matched with the laminated cherry B&S are commonly present. I find this gives a sweet fundamental tone. Responsive within their dynamic range* even though the cedar topped ones don't like heavy strumming. Though less common, there are also models with different woods than the classic cedar and laminated wild cherry.

My workhorse guitar continues to be a 20th century Seagull Folk, a 00 deep body model with cedar/laminated wild cherry.

The modern Seagulls I've played briefly in stores don't check all the boxes I've outlined above. But there are a goodly number of the "vintage" ones out there at bargain basement prices.

Good luck on your search.


*By this I mean, when some folks talk "dynamic range" they mean that it won't compress or sound lousy when strummed hard. What I mean is that there's lot of nice sound variety in the soft-quiet to medium-attack range in mine. You mention wanting to avoid "boxy" -- which in another recent thread there means different things to different people. Playing a guitar harder than it wants to be played can produce a quality that can be called boxy.

Interesting - I have a Seagull S6 from 1999, and it has a great wide fretboard, but a very thin neck profile that cramps my hands up... I guess some of the later ones thickened the neck up. I agree about playing the guitar harder than it likes produces a boxy tone. I play fairly softly in general, so I may be able to avoid that for the better part. Thanks for the reply!

Originally Posted by dirkronk

This. ^^^^
I'm paying attention to your question, big jilm, because I'm in much the same boat so far as what I'd like to find myself. I actually DID find it a few years back, but didn't feel like I could afford it at the time. The answer, I fear, is an old tried-and-true one (and raysachs has already expressed it): you HAVE to actually play the guitar you're going to buy.

Reason I say this? Years ago, I was in my local guitar shop, Guitar Tex here in San Antonio, and the guys put a Martin 00-18v in my hands. I plucked the G string and it resonated with an absolutely beautiful tone and did so for a length of time I normally associate with rosewood, not mahogany...yet it still had that fundamental clarity I wanted in a singing companion. In a word: magic. The neck, nut, fingerspacing, body size and feel were all perfect...only the price gave me pause. What happened, though, is that I paid attention to every 00-18v I saw, new or used, from then on. Found some good ones, found some disappointing ones, but none with the same magic. Gave each one that "G string" resonance test, and none came up to the original experience. Shoulda found a way to buy that very first one.
So...something similar happened when they got in their first CEO-7 at Guitar Tex. Not as dramatic, but a LOT of things sounded and felt really right. And in trying others over the years since, examples of that guitar seem more consistently impressive. Just my reaction, of course.
Me, now that I'm retired and feeling better about spending more that a few hundred on an instrument, I'm thinking of going back on a hunt for the magic.

FWIW...my reactions to some alternative guitars mentioned:
Waterloo...while I've admired almost every Collings I've played, their Waterloo instruments do absolutely nothing for me at all. My reaction to three that I played over a year ago (2 ladder braced, 1 x braced) at nearby Lark Guitars here was, "feels, looks and sounds like a $30 guitar from my youth...but they're asking thousands?" My feeling MAY have been due to an apparent lack of set-up on the shop's part...I'm spoiled to the care Guitar Tex takes in prepping products before putting them on the floor. YMMV, of course, depending on where you shop.

Smaller Santa Cruz models (H or 1929) would be, alas, beyond your budget...mine too. I reserve the right to drool, however.
I've played Huss & Dalton small bodies that impressed me as much or more, and for less money, but my experience (again at Guitar Tex) was years back and I know those guitars have only gone up in price. But if you see one used, pay close attention.



Years back, when another local shop (Redbone Guitar Boutique) was near my house, they carried Eastman and I fell in love with the feel of an E20P. Neck fit my hand perfectly, great sound, easy fingerpicking, but it was a rosewood model and they never got in a mahogany version (E10P) for me to try. Sad, because it was basically 0 size yet had a remarkably big sound; was hoping the hog version would be similar. Same thing happened when Eastman came out with their traditional 00 12-frets...no E10-00 ever showed up, just the rosewood model (and the other 00 in their line, the E10-00ss, had a too-skinny nut). However, if you're OK with 12-fret models and have access to an Eastman dealer in Houston, check it out.



Best advice on the thread.

But best of luck to you in your quest! I'll be following this thread to check up on you. Maybe whatever you end up with will inspire me to let loose of some guitar-buying cash myself (at long last). Meanwhile, greetings from 200 miles west of you.

Dirk

Hi, Dirk! Thanks for the good info here. I agree about playing the guitar before buying - I want to do that, and I hope I can. Every guitar is so different, especially acoustics. Before I bought my 000-15m, I played just about every one in Houston, and picked the best one - and it was the best one by a mile, to be honest. Louder, lighter, and livelier. I am selling my electric guitar amp and pedals to afford this eventual purchase, so a Santa Cruz is likely out of the question, though that H13 mentioned by a previous forumite looks absolutely amazing. I will definitely keep my eyes peeled for a used one, though. Thanks for the reply, and "hi" to a fellow Texan!

Originally Posted by Ozarkpicker

If I had the money...I'd do a Custom Shop order for a CEO-7 with a MLO neck carve instead of the Mod-V that the stock guitar comes with. I love the CEO-7 tone...but I personally can't handle the neck shape. I love the standard 00-18 too, but the CEO-7 is a dang cannon compared to it. Come to think of it...I'll bet the neck shape adds a lot to the tonality.

It might - I think it does on electric guitars. My hand doesn't like the MLO my 000-15m has, though it's definitely playable. I just start to cramp some on barre chords, which doesn't happen on a thicker necked guitar. Interesting to hear that the CEO-7 is louder than the 00-18 - I have heard that one before. TBH, I don't really need a loud guitar, as I sing pretty quietly (as opposed to my rock days when I had to scream lol) so I don't think that would bother me about a 00-18 - it would mainly be the neck that stopped me there. Thanks for the info!

Thanks, everyone for the replies so far. So far, these are high-up on my "try to find to play" list:
Martin CEO-7. This is the guitar I first thought of. It kinda leads the pack in my mind (as I haven't played one). Seems to easily check the boxes.
Martin 00-18v (used). I'm cool with this one, too - if I can find one used.
Gibson LG-2. I hadn't thought about a Gibson, TBH. The nut is a bit narrower, I believe (not much though). Has the look, for sure. One thing I dislike about Gibson guitars is the finish on the neck. My old J-29 was a GREAT guitar - an absolute cannon (which is partly why it is gone) - but my hand would get stuck on that sticky neck. I have played Gibson electrics for many, many years, and that ****ed finish would mess with my hand until I would take a Scotch Brite pad to it, and even then it didn't feel great to me. I much prefer a satin finish on the neck. That said, some Gibsons are better than others in this regard. I will definitely seek out an LG-2 to try.
Waterloo WL-14. I want to avoid "boxiness", but hearing some say they don't find these guitars to have that trait makes me want to try one. TBH, these get my attention for looks, specs, AND the idea of Collings quality. If I found one of these felt right and sounded like I am looking for, I would snap one up in a minute. I will definitely try one. Fuller's Vintage Guitar here in Houston (well, I am currently in Greece - so "there in Houston") shows a Waterloo in stock.
Eastman E10 00. If I see one, I'll definitely give it a play. Small, mahogany, wider nut... if it sounds good and the neck is thick enough, I'd be in. If I am being perfectly honest, the IDEA of an Eastman doesn't excite me like Martin, Gibson, Collings, etc. etc. etc. does, but if I found a great one I would buy with a quickness.

Thanks everyone for the replies so far - I appreciate everyone taking the time, and it is giving me lots to look up and listen to online, which is always fun! Any more replies are welcome for sure.

[big jilm]

In this YouTube video (link at end of this post) a comparison is made between the CEO-7 and a Waterloo WL-14x. VERY very different sounds with the Martin sounding (to my ears) much deeper and more resonant, bigger. I like both sounds quite a lot, though. The fellow in the video (when he is using a pick) picks about as hard as I do. Which one is "better"? To me, the Martin wins hands-down on sound for different styles - beautiful tone to me. That said, the Waterloo sounds cool in its own way. Dry. The real test for me would be to sing over them and see which compliments my voice. I have a pretty deep voice (I was Bass II in high school a LONG time ago) - I have no trouble singing most Leonard Cohen songs. The Waterloo (or a guitar like it) might stay out of the way better. I am looking forward to trying one to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoxUw6Is8kg

[Woolbury]

Originally Posted by big jilm

I really like the looks of those - and they seem nearly perfect, but they seem to have that old-time kinda boxy blues tone, no? I want a fuller sound than I am hearing on the YouTube demos for Waterloos. Those seem to be absolutely awesome for finger picked blues and ragtime stuff - but I flatpick (poorly) a lot of folk and Americana type stuff. That said, I’m planning on trying a Waterloo, because they seem so dang cool. Thanks for the reply!

I was super interested in the CEO-7, but couldn't find one to play anywhere. Along the way, found and bought a Waterloo WL-14X, and its quickly become my favorite guitar. Cant compare since I've never played a CEO-7(would still like too), but you owe it to yourself to check out a Waterloo if you have the chance. I do think they favor finger style, I rarely play with a pick on it

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by big jilm

In this YouTube video (link at end of this post) a comparison is made between the CEO-7 and a Waterloo WL-14x. VERY very different sounds with the Martin sounding (to my ears) much deeper and more resonant, bigger. I like both sounds quite a lot, though. The fellow in the video (when he is using a pick) picks about as hard as I do. Which one is "better"? To me, the Martin wins hands-down on sound for different styles - beautiful tone to me. That said, the Waterloo sounds cool in its own way. Dry. The real test for me would be to sing over them and see which compliments my voice. I have a pretty deep voice (I was Bass II in high school a LONG time ago) - I have no trouble singing most Leonard Cohen songs. The Waterloo (or a guitar like it) might stay out of the way better. I am looking forward to trying one to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoxUw6Is8kg

I just watched that and pretty much agreed with the guy who did the comparison. The CEO-7 sounds much more versatile, more complex, more nuanced, richer. As an only or even one of a couple of guitars, I'd pick that all day. BUT, if I had a big collection of guitars, some of which covered similar territory to the CEO-7, I'd probably pick the Waterloo because it has such a specific bluesy, dry, woody sound.

It's kind of funny because when I play my rosewood 000-28EC and the CEO-7 back to back, the CEO-7 strikes me as very fundamental and woody in comparison, and the 000-28 is definitely richer, more complex, lusher, etc. Part of the difference is the non-CEO in each comparison is coming from a totally different direction. But part of it may be that I play Monels on the CEO-7, and PB on the 000-28. Put PB on the CEO and it would probably sound notably closer to the 000-28 than it does with Monels. But, man, as dry as that Waterloo sounded with PBs on it, I can't imagine what THAT would sound like with Monels! So dry it might spontaneously combust...

-Ray

[Nctom]

I'm fairly late to this thread, but I will throw my experiences in. I now have a Waterloo WL-14X, along with a WL-12Mh, and am very happy with it. I bought it used a couple of years ago; it was an early, 3 digit SN that was at Guitar Center, well played in but in great shape.
It has a wonderful tone, and has no trace of boxiness.

I had a CEO-7 for awhile that caused me a number of headaches and troubles. A neck reset and binding reglue made me less than happy so I sold it at a significant loss and a warning to the next owner. That was a good sounding and, after the reset, and playing, guitar, though.....

I hope Martin solved the problems it had with the CEO-7 and wish them well, but for now my money is with Waterloo/Collings.

[big jilm]

Originally Posted by Woolbury

I was super interested in the CEO-7, but couldn't find one to play anywhere. Along the way, found and bought a Waterloo WL-14X, and its quickly become my favorite guitar. Cant compare since I've never played a CEO-7(would still like too), but you owe it to yourself to check out a Waterloo if you have the chance. I do think they favor finger style, I rarely play with a pick on it

I’ll definitely check out a Waterloo. If it sounds good with a pick and my voice, it may just be what I am looking for. I see in your sig you have both a Waterloo and a Gibson LG-2: how do they compare? Which is louder? Which sounds bigger? Is one better with a pick? Does the Gibson have more bass? Sustain? The LG-2 is beginning to get my attention as well!

Thanks for weighing in!