Installing an internal microphone [HELP]

[PANDAPANDELO]

Hey everybody. I just got myself an AKG c516 to install inside my GS Mini. It already have a K&K pure mini, and I will use the K&K Trinity Preamp to feed the mic and EQ/blending purposes.

I have a soldering iron, but no experience with electrics. I would like to know if any of you guys could lead me on this crazy path. I’ll call my buddy AlohaChris later to some guidance if you guys don’t know much about it, so don’t worry at all. It would be just to educate myself a little.

PS: I don’t even know what “ground”, “tip”, etc. are. Hahahahahha!

Thank you all!

[euraquilo]

The C516 looks like it's intended for clipping onto an instrument externally (ala DPA 4099). You'll probably need to modify that gooseneck connector a bit to make it internally usable.

I've been experimenting with adding an internal microphone, but I chose one of the few dynamic (ie, non-condenser) lavalier mics - a Shure SM11. I did this because I wanted to avoid the phantom power issue and how it complicates the wiring/preamping.

My first experiment so far has been adding the mic to my Martin Dreadnought Jr where I already had a JJB Prestige 330 (similar to the K&K Pure Mini) installed. When I bought the P330 I asked Jessie (JJB's owner) to add a second cable (18" long) with a 3.5" male plug at the end. I then purchased a female jack corresponding to that and re-soldered the mic cable to that jack. I had to wire the two non-ground leads (red and white) to the tip and the ground to the sleeve.

To place the mic in the body of the guitar I used a piece of copper electrical wire, attached it to a cable clip on one end and a D-Wing cable organizer on the other end. I used a piece of strong double-sided take to attach it to the back of the guitar and then I can position the mic wherever I find is best for the sound.

In general, I'd say that my experiment has produced mixed results. I think the SM11 requires more gain than a condenser would, and at present I don't have a two-channel preamp to play them both at once. This has simply been an experiment.

Since it sounds like you already have a K&K in the guitar you're adding the mic to, you're going to have to pull the end jack in order to wire in the mic. If it's a TRS jack (ie, it'll accommodate three connections) you can re-use the jack and just wire in the mic to it. If it's a mono jack (ie, accommodates only two connections), you'll need to replace it with a TRS one - or drill a second hole in the body of the guitar for another jack.

All this is to say that if you're not accustomed to using a soldering iron you may find this a bit of a challenge. My experience so far has been that an IR pedal (Tonedexter/VoicePrint/Optima Air) is a very good alternative to all that work.

[Doug Young]

I've tried and failed to install the AKG mic. It's big, clunky, and I found no good way to mount it inside the guitar in a way that I thought was safe. I guess Greg at Pendulum used to modify them somehow with a mount that worked, (and also modified them to sound better), and apparently Chris has done it, so hopefully he'll weigh in. I just use smaller, lighter mics that can be attached with a wire clip and that that don't make me concerned about a heavy mic coming loose inside the guitar. I'm always surprised that this mic gets mentioned as a good option, while at the same time there's no info on how exactly to mount it in the guitar. If anyone has done it, some photos, etc, would be very interesting.

BTW, my approach to installing mics looks very much like euroquill's.

[PANDAPANDELO]

Thank you guys for the tips! I do have a TD, and I like it, but O miss the true airiness that only a real mic can achieve. I will make the installation inside the acoustic guitar. It can be a little harder for its size, but I will make it. My only concern is about the tip, ground, positive, negative, sleeve... I don't know nothing about this! I did some soldering research, and I have ALL the tools. I Just don't have the knowledge about the pieces names, and where shuld I solder the wires.

Once again: thank you, guys!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO

Thank you guys for the tips! I do have a TD, and I like it, but O miss the true airiness that only a real mic can achieve. I will make the installation inside the acoustic guitar. It can be a little harder for its size, but I will make it. My only concern is about the tip, ground, positive, negative, sleeve... I don't know nothing about this! I did some soldering research, and I have ALL the tools. I Just don't have the knowledge about the pieces names, and where shuld I solder the wires.

Once again: thank you, guys!

With my Audix mics, which are also 3 wire, I wire shield and one of the wires (red? I forget right now) to ground, the other to the ring. No idea if the same thing would work with the AKG. AlohaChris is the only person I know of who reports using that mic, so maybe PM him?

[Rick Shepherd]

This is one reason why I ditched the idea of a dual source setup years ago, it was difficult to figure out how or get clear direction on exactly how to wire it and mount the internal mic. What a pain!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

This is one reason why I ditched the idea of a dual source setup years ago, it was difficult to figure out how or get clear direction on exactly how to wire it and mount the internal mic. What a pain!

if you have the right gear, including a preamp to correctly power the mic, it's really simple. Mics intended for this use are almost always 2-wire, so you just solder shield to ground, hot wire to ring. Once you venture out into mics that weren't meant for this use it gets a bit more experimental, but still not all that difficult. For me, the challenge to AKG mic is the mounting - it just doesn't lend itself to being installed inside the guitar as-is, so you have to rig up something, and nothing I came up with was anything I'd want inside a guitar, since it's rather big and heavy.

[alohachris]

Aloha Rodrigo,

It's been 12-15 years since I did all those installations of K&K dual-source systems. The endpin K&K uses now looks different, & all the leads are unmarked as usual. So the perpetual question stumping so many player self-installations is: which color mic wire goes to which unmarked endpin lead? Very unclear!

The AKG 516 has three wires: red, white & ground. The K&K P/U's red wire is soldered to both the tip & the shield of the endpin. So try solder the red AKG (for hot) wire onto the RING (guessing it's the shortest of the three unmarked lugs). If that sounds incomplete or not at all when connected, try the white wire on the RING (which I think is correct - bad memory here).

Does anyone out there know which color AKG 516 wire goes to which unmarked K&K lug for sure? Otherwise, experiment Rodrigo. Only two choices for the ring connection, right? Red or white.

I sent an email to K&K today asking the lead question. Will hear back Monday.

BTW, Pendulum Audio put thousands of AKG mic's into K&K pickup endpins & mounted in guitars over the years. The AKG ML416 & its successor ML516 were Greg's favorite internal guitar mic's sonically for his famous SPS-1 industry-standard stereo preamps.

Now at first glance, Doug, the long arm of the AKG's does look too big for inside a guitar. But I 'mounting-taped' the AKG's plsatic receiving mount to the bottom side of the guitar, at around the waist. Then I clipped in the 416 mic's plastic clip into the side mount & positioned the flexible mic arm into the best position.

The only modification I did (following Greg's example) was to add a 3/16" thick piece of small hardwood glued or taped to the bottom of the side mount & the same size as the mount, so that the long arm of the AKG could clear any wooden side braces of the guitars & be easily positioned at the sweetspot. So the side mount was made higher.

Then I used the long flexible arm of the AKG mic, faced up at my sweetspot, just inside the soundhole (feedback protection) at 4 o'clock positiion (no clips or foam & superglue), & suspended the capsule at about 1" or a little more below the guitar top. The capsule facing up at the high E & B treble strings.

The side mount connection was solid enough to prevent the mic's arm from vibrating or moving. I've had that AKG/K&K combo unchanged in my lil Koa guitar for almost 20 years now. Still works great! And no call from many others I made the add-on mic installation for.

Since the 416 was hypercardioid & 516 cardioid, it really kept a lot of boxiness out of the mic channel. I prefer it to omni's such as the DPA 4006.

I EQ'ed the mic by rolling off all the bass & lower mid's, only using it for clear, natural trebles. I EQ'ed the K&K pickup channel only for presence & the nice round bass, no trebles or upper mid's. Then I summed & mixed both channels at the SPS- or mixer. Worked great!

However, the question of which wire is soldered to the right lead, especially the RING, is the elephant question in the room. Different mic manufacturers all use different colored wires - so no standard is written. But why are the K&K leads unmarked?

Doug, do you remember which colored wires you typically connected a mic to the K&K stereo endpin? And which lead? Was it the white to the RING usually?

Can anyone else help Rodrigo with an answer here. I saw him with a soldering iron in his hands earlier today. Scared the heck out of me. Him too! HA!

A Hui Hou,

alohachris

[PANDAPANDELO]

I almost died yesterday in a non intentional iron soldering suicide. I'll try again today, and I'll let you guys know how it went (if I survive the task).

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by alohachris

A
However, the question of which wire is soldered to the right lead, especially the RING, is the elephant question in the room. Different mic manufacturers all use different colored wires - so no standard is written. But why are the K&K leads unmarked?

Doug, do you remember which colored wires you typically connected a mic to the K&K stereo endpin? And which lead? Was it the white to the RING usually?

With my Audix mics, I wire the white wire and shield to ground, the red to the ring lug (had to look that up). No idea if that is a "standard", so you'd just have to try each option with a different mic. Shouldn't hurt anything.

I'm not understanding the K&K question. I haven't installed a K&K in a while, but all the ones I've seen have simply had the K&K wires (3 of them) wired to the tip lug of a TRS jack. The remaining, unused lug is the ring. Just wire any 2nd source to the ground and open lug on the jack.

[Rick Shepherd]

Haha, what you all described sounds complicated. I know if I applied myself, I could probably figure it out. I have a SPS-1 preamp, and meant to do the pkup/mic install years ago. Maybe I will give it a go, since I have the pkup/mic cable for the SPS-1. Seems a shame not to finish what I originally intended.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Haha, what you all described sounds complicated. I know if I applied myself, I could probably figure it out. I have a SPS-1 preamp, and meant to do the pkup/mic install years ago. Maybe I will give it a go, since I have the pkup/mic cable for the SPS-1. Seems a shame not to finish what I originally intended.

It's all relative :-) You've got the right amplification setup, that's the hard part! It's basically, you have an endpin jack with 2 connections on it - 2 lugs. One source gets wired to ground and one of the lugs, the other source goes to ground and the other lug. If the 2nd source is a condenser mic, it needs to be wired to the ring lug, because that's where your SPS-1 module will send power for it.

The part that gets confusing is that virtually no one makes a mic intended for this purpose anymore (other than the K&K Silver Bullet), so everyone is trying to connect parts that weren't really designed for this purpose.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It's all relative :-) You've got the right amplification setup, that's the hard part! It's basically, you have an endpin jack with 2 connections on it - 2 lugs. One source gets wired to ground and one of the lugs, the other source goes to ground and the other lug. If the 2nd source is a condenser mic, it needs to be wired to the ring lug, because that's where your SPS-1 module will send power for it.

The part that gets confusing is that virtually no one makes a mic intended for this purpose anymore (other than the K&K Silver Bullet), so everyone is trying to connect parts that weren't really designed for this purpose.

Hi Doug (and others)…
And K&K crippled (my word) the Silver Bullet mics limiting them to less than 9V (if I remember right). Any higher and they shut down.

I have older Silver Bullets in all my guitars and have run them as hot as 18V (for years) with zero issues.

I don't remember the year K&K changed the mic input limits, but if you could find a Silver Bullet that's older, they work like a charm.

[alohachris]

Aloha Rodrigo & Friends,

Well, here are the wiring instructions from K&K RE: how to wire the AKG 516 internal mic to the K&K stereo endjack:

FROM K&K: "Here are the instructions for wiring our Trinity Mic to the endpin jack.

https://kksound.com/pdf/trinity-solder.pdf

"With the AKG being balanced with 3 wires, it will connect a little differently. Doing a little research, I believe the red wire from the mic is the hot wire and should be connected to the ring terminal of the endpin jack (the medium length one). The longest terminal is a switch and will not be used.

"Since we don't make this mic and have not tried connecting to the Trinity preamp, I cannot guarantee how it will sound or the output level. But when going from a 3 wire balanced to a 2 wire unbalanced you have to short the ground to the negative; these would both then solder to the sleeve (ground) on the output jack.

"Then use the stereo cable from the guitar to the Trinity Pro preamp.

"You might want to reach out to AKG and make sure that by shorting the negative and the ground it will not damage the mic.

"This picture is not the same, but should give an idea of how to hook up. Red to ring (medium terminal), other wires to sleeve.
image.png"

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/ma...ils=true&pid=2

BTW Rodrigo, the AKG 516 condenser mic runs on 2-12V phantom power - well within the 8-16V of the K&K preamp. Since the K&K is very hot even as a passive mic, you'll probably have to re-mix it with the 516 at your K&K Trinity Pro preamp to achieve a better balance & volume levels that work together well. You should have no problem using the 48V phantom power of your new Felix2 to power the 516 once it arrives.

That should help clarify the issue for you & others who wish to connect the 516 to the K&K. BTW, Switchcraft manufactures all the endjacks in the world for various pickup companies. You can get info from them as well.

alohachris

[alohachris]

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