Acoustic with LOUD country band

Feifongwong · #1 10-25-2021, 12:50 AM

Hi all, first post:

I’ve been in a country band for many many years now. We play a lot of Vince Gill and Buck Owens tunes. I have a really nice Taylor 414ce with the ES2 system (upgraded from the crummy ES1). I have a Para Acoustic DI, HX Stomp and that’s it. I have no other acoustic gear.

The other guitar player insists on playing a fender twin on 8 (just brutally loud) and I play an assortment of Dr Z amps (Stang Ray, MAZ Jr, Z wreck Jr) which work great to keep up with the volume.

Because of the sheer volume, I always just resort to playing electric.

At our last gig this weekend, I brought both the electric rig (tele, z wreck jr) and the acoustic rig (Taylor, para acoustic DI, into PA). Soundcheck is always two songs and the first set basically. The acoustic disappeared in the mix except for lots of low feedback whenever I hit an A chord.

What is the solution for loud band acoustic? I don’t get it. I had to just do the usual tele on middle position for rhythm and the Taylor just sat all night looking pretty.

I have searched and searched the inter webs for some loud gigging acoustic knowledge, but can’t find much. I was thinking of getting a loudbox mini as a stage monitor, but wonder if it’ll be enough, and if it will just feedback at the volumes we play.

And no, the other guitar player will not turn down (it’s been 12 years and it won’t change). If any of you can help me I’d be so grateful. It is very frustrating to have such a sweet electric setup that works and no acoustic in a country band.

Stratcat77 · #2 10-25-2021, 06:48 AM

“A twin on 8”? Are you playing stadiums? Not sure you’ll ever solve your problem with that issue.

I played in bands with “that guy” for years and I now have hearing loss as a result…. When I switched to doing acoustic gigs and got hearing devices for my loss, I was amazed how clearly I could hear my guitar and vocal.

Band volume is hard to manage when you have guys who refuse to turn down and let the PA handle the overall mix. With a guy playing at 8 through a Twin, you’re never going to get a good mix with any clarity.

MrDB · #3 10-25-2021, 07:06 AM

I agree with Stratcat. A Twin on 4 is too loud for most bars. On 8 I can't imagine the earsplitting volume.

There is only 1 solution and that's form your own band.

jklotz · #4 10-25-2021, 07:09 AM

I've been there. I also have the hearing loss to show for it. 1st recommendation - earplugs. I stumbled on some called "ear peace" that have inserts to let you control the level of blockage. The lowest insert still let me hear everything clearly, but took that sting out of it and my ears would be ringing a lot less after the show.

2nd suggestion - see if you can get your guitar player to look into the Fender tonemaster twin reverb. It has an attenuater built in. He could play on 10 at a reasonable volume if he wanted to.

3rd - Get a feedback buster, one of those rubber soundhole covers.

4th - Make sure you ring out the monitors at soundcheck, and cut your guitar in the area it feeds back.

if all that fails, you may want to look into getting something like a Godan multiac, Taylor tz5 or the like.

Hope that helps.

YamahaGuy · #5 10-25-2021, 07:30 AM

Use the PADI to pull out the offending feedback frequency. And an SLG200S Yamaha silent guitar will handle high stage volumes well.

Rudy4 · #6 10-25-2021, 08:05 AM

I needed to use my acoustic in place of using my normal Telecaster for a gig that was pretty loud and I was surprised how easily I could play at high volume when I used a D'Addario "Screeching Halt" sound hole plug.

The guitar was a GS Mini with a K&K Pure Mini pickup. It was necessary to make sure my arm was contacting the top of the guitar to prevent feedback.

I purchased and used the GS Mini while recovering from a pulverized collarbone injury. The fortuitous result of this was my new-found appreciation of small bodied acoustic guitars.

Peter Z · #7 10-25-2021, 08:57 AM

I’m suffering from tinnitus since my military service. I HATE it. Take care of your ears.
The rest of the band should save some money and buy the product shown below for that player and put him in. Maybe also buy another one to put the first one in.

Also, a Twin at 8 doesn’t sound great in my opinion. Take a Super Reverb for that, but even that needs a power soak and an isolation box.

JayBee1404 · #8 10-25-2021, 09:12 AM

Sounds to me like ‘that guy’ needs to be given the Order of The Boot, and replaced by someone more centred on what’s best for the band as a whole, and less on his own ego. One guy drowning the other guys just wrecks the band’s sound and can lose you gigs.

Trying to outdo (or even match) a guy who plays too loud is the road to nowhere. ‘That guy’ is likely to turn up further, resulting in a spiral of mounting overall volume.

I’ve played in bands in the past which had exactly the same problem, and I’ve experienced the volume-battle. If ‘that guy’ won’t get in line for the good of the band, he’s someone you really don’t need, no matter how good of a player he might be.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Feifongwong · #9 10-25-2021, 09:18 AM

Clarifier (it was late and storming last night):

The other guitar player plays thru a tone master twin set up at head level on a stand. He plays both pedal steel and guitar thru it, has two pedal boards, so it’s a lot going on. But yes, it is one of those talent, tolerant scale things (the more talent, the more everyone tolerates) and it’s tough finding a steel player around these parts.

I have a sound hole cover but in my haste, left it at home.

So, if you can’t get rid of the person, and you must adapt, what would you do then? Monitor with soundhole cover? Acoustic amp with a DI out to front? Any other practical solutions for an impractical environment?

tadol · #10 10-25-2021, 09:26 AM

I play acoustic in an all electric band. I always had to worry about feedback, and frequently felt I could just stop playing and nobody would notice when people got turned up. I started with a K&K, and it sounded good when you could hear it, but then I upgraded it with one of James Mays UltraTonic retrofit kits, got the switches on his cool little circuit board adjusted, and now I have an acoustic that I can crank up just as loud as anyone else - if I wanted too - with great tone and no concerns about feedback. It also comes with a soundhole volume control that I can add just as much volume as I want, without having to adjust EQ. Handy for songs where we intro with just my acoustic and voice(s). A good set of earplugs are still in my accessory kit though -

tadol · #11 10-25-2021, 09:57 AM

Just read your post after posting about the UltraTonic -

For my current setup (which seems to be working quite well for me) - I’ve given up on an amp. I picked up a Rolls PM351, plug my guitar and mic into it, then run a 4 channel snake (using 2 XLRs and one TS) to our Mixer to carry their signals to the main PA, then run a monitor feed back to the PM351 (the TS), then a line out from the 351 to a personal monitor (I’m using a Bose S1). The PM 351 lets me adjust my guitar, my vocal, and the monitor mix - which is usually the other 3 vocals - independently in my personal mix. I can’t control the other amps/pedals, but if they got too hot, and I have trouble hearing my guitar or vocals, I can easily adjust what I want in my own mix. We use a Zoom mixer with a pair of QSC K10.2s for the PA, so we get very good sound, and my guitar sounds as good (or better?) than If I carried a large acoustic amp with me. I’m still adjusting this setup, as we’ve only had 3 real gigs post-Covid, but its working great in practice!

Chriscom · #12 10-25-2021, 09:59 AM

I just play at smaller bars and the like, in addition to hanging out at them, but I have never heard an acoustic guitar, with an acoustic sound, able to cut through an electric-heavy band when they're pounding away--at venues of any size. It's one of the reasons some folks here end up thinking "my [acoustic] guitar but louder" isn't always the ideal solution.

A pro-level sound man can do magic with tone-shaping and the like--do you have a sound guy who does that full-time for you?--and the other tactic is a band that carefully creates the space in a song to let the acoustic come through. But if you don't have at least one of the above (I'd bank more heavily on the latter), I don't see how you're going to be heard.

My gold standard for thinking about this topic is Linda Ronstadt's studio version of Poor Poor Pitiful Me. Starts with just acoustic guitar (well after some cowbell), then voices, and once a bass guitar shows up you can still often hear the acoustic in the background, then when electric-guitar fills come in, it smothers what's left of the acoustic. Except, in the early part of the song, it's not a constant electric line. It gaps-out to create space.

I'll bet anything the acoustic guy was playing all the way through but you can't hear him when everybody's playing. And then of course near the end, they cut everything out again to forefront the acoustic before the party-jam starts up again to fadeout.

Acoustics can't win the volume wars; they can just work great if everyone in the bands wants them to.

Feifongwong · #13 10-25-2021, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tadol

Just read your post after posting about the UltraTonic -

For my current setup (which seems to be working quite well for me) - I’ve given up on an amp. I picked up a Rolls PM351, plug my guitar and mic into it, then run a 4 channel snake (using 2 XLRs and one TS) to our Mixer to carry their signals to the main PA, then run a monitor feed back to the PM351 (the TS), then a line out from the 351 to a personal monitor (I’m using a Bose S1). The PM 351 lets me adjust my guitar, my vocal, and the monitor mix - which is usually the other 3 vocals - independently in my personal mix. I can’t control the other amps/pedals, but if they got too hot, and I have trouble hearing my guitar or vocals, I can easily adjust what I want in my own mix. We use a Zoom mixer with a pair of QSC K10.2s for the PA, so we get very good sound, and my guitar sounds as good (or better?) than If I carried a large acoustic amp with me. I’m still adjusting this setup, as we’ve only had 3 real gigs post-Covid, but its working great in practice!

This is super helpful and something I’m considering. I’ve not heard of the Rolls unit and will investigate. I may just need to get my own personal monitor like what our keys player uses and bring that and set it atop the electric amp behind me.

Reading about the Bose S1 and it looks very nice (small, loud and can sit atop an electric amp..

Thanks everyone for the help. Please keep the suggestions coming. Is there a particular monitor that would work for this situation? We have mackie thump 12’s as our monitors and I may just as our singer if I can be responsible for one and practice using it at home.

Feifongwong · #14 10-25-2021, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stratcat77

“A twin on 8”? Are you playing stadiums? Not sure you’ll ever solve your problem with that issue.

I played in bands with “that guy” for years and I now have hearing loss as a result…. When I switched to doing acoustic gigs and got hearing devices for my loss, I was amazed how clearly I could hear my guitar and vocal.

Band volume is hard to manage when you have guys who refuse to turn down and let the PA handle the overall mix. With a guy playing at 8 through a Twin, you’re never going to get a good mix with any clarity.

Yeah, some gigs are great, but once the beer flows, it gets tough. With my electric, it's no problem as my amps keep up, but I really want to bring the acoustic for some songs. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks (I'm the youngest member of the band).

Peter Z · #15 10-25-2021, 10:30 AM

Feifongwong, I don’t think, there is a way to make an acoustic audible against a Twin at high volume.
Have you thought about a Fender Acoustasonic? I’ve never played one but that could work. A soundhole cover will not help too much because the vibrations of your top will feed back. I had that more than once.

https://www.fender.com/de-AT/acoustasonic-guitars/