Good Open Mic Guitars

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I've used K&K a couple times, but I've installed JJB pickups much more...

I have a K&K in one guitar and a JJB in another. I like them both. The output from the K&K is a bit hotter, but that's not really a problem.

Originally Posted by Mandobart

For ease of use, couple one of these with a K&K Pure preamp. It's a pretty simple setup. And will set you back ~$150; maybe $200 if someone installs it for you.

You can cut the cost even further with a Behringer ADI21 acoustic guitar preamp instead of the K&K, $35 at Sweetwater. I had good luck with mine until I replaced it with a ToneDexter.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

You can cut the cost even further with a Behringer ADI21 acoustic guitar preamp instead of the K&K, $35 at Sweetwater. I had good luck with mine until I replaced it with a ToneDexter.

The Behringer ADI21 is a great preamp for the price. I still have mine as a backup. The K&K is easier to use as it clips to your waistband and gives you volume, low, midrange, and treble pots for easy adjustment on the fly.

My K&K pure preamp is relegated to backup duty as well ever since I got a RedEye a few years ago.

[erniecaster]

Hi,

at the open mics I know pedals or even pedalboards are strictly forbidden. "Here is the plug, plug it in and go for it."

cu

erniecaster

[Br1ck]

Open mic rules and capabilities vary with the open mic. You are just getting your feet wet, so keep expense low. I'm not a K&K fan at all, but they are so common it's hard not to recommend them, or a jjB for that matter. I and our cohost were so tired of people showing up with just K&Ks we took matters into our own hands and had SunnAudio build us a two channel custom blender. Now even a lot of the cheap guitars with onboard systems sound better.

But some operators don't know or care about impedance mismatch, the primary reason you should always have a pre. It takes no longer to plug the house cable into a pre than a guitar. By the way, your K&K manual says you need a pre. Most never see it I guess. So for now I'd go cheap, and double your savings for a really good guitar.

My feeling about Taylors is meah. I'd call the ES2 competent. It will always work, but the problem is Taylor owners can't keep their hands off the knobs. Ask them if they can hear the monitors ok, they say yes, then up their volume mid song screwing up their own house mix, instead of pointing to the monitor with a more volume sign. These are common rookie mistakes. Up your guitar volume and your vocals are too low.

An open mic should be able to mic your guitar too. Like I said, all are not equal. If you are going to run a pre, don't futz with it. You won't have the time. Set it at home and hope for the best. Ask the host if they have a high impedance switch on the channel they use for acoustic pickups. If you get a look of bewilderment, use your pre.

And, above all, attend over and over. It takes some time to get used to it. This differs person to person. Keep in mind, those that play will be supportive, those that don't will be thinking he sucks, but wish they had the nerve.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Open mic rules and capabilities vary with the open mic. You are just getting your feet wet, so keep expense low. I'm not a K&K fan at all, but they are so common it's hard not to recommend them, or a jjB for that matter. I and our cohost were so tired of people showing up with just K&Ks we took matters into our own hands and had SunnAudio build us a two channel custom blender. Now even a lot of the cheap guitars with onboard systems sound better.

But some operators don't know or care about impedance mismatch, the primary reason you should always have a pre. It takes no longer to plug the house cable into a pre than a guitar. By the way, your K&K manual says you need a pre. Most never see it I guess. So for now I'd go cheap, and double your savings for a really good guitar.

My feeling about Taylors is meah. I'd call the ES2 competent. It will always work, but the problem is Taylor owners can't keep their hands off the knobs. Ask them if they can hear the monitors ok, they say yes, then up their volume mid song screwing up their own house mix, instead of pointing to the monitor with a more volume sign. These are common rookie mistakes. Up your guitar volume and your vocals are too low.

An open mic should be able to mic your guitar too. Like I said, all are not equal. If you are going to run a pre, don't futz with it. You won't have the time. Set it at home and hope for the best. Ask the host if they have a high impedance switch on the channel they use for acoustic pickups. If you get a look of bewilderment, use your pre.

And, above all, attend over and over. It takes some time to get used to it. This differs person to person. Keep in mind, those that play will be supportive, those that don't will be thinking he sucks, but wish they had the nerve.

By the way, the K&K manual does NOT state that you "need" a preamp. Most "never see it" because it isn't there.

K&K takes extra effort to tell potential users that in many cases a preamp is not needed. Here's a quote from their website:

"The Pure Pickup is our award-winning, signature pickup for acoustic guitars. Installed on the guitar's bridge plate, the Pure Pickup is the the best choice for achieving a rich, natural guitar sound -- even without a preamp!

Our customers tell us that it's the best passive pickup on the market, which means it's the perfect plug-and-play solution for the musician who wants a warm, full-range signal without worrying about cluttering up their instrument, adjusting onboard electronics, or having to remember to change the battery."

In some cases preamp will help reduce excessive bass in impedance mis-match issues (that's what is actually stated in the manual) but I've seldom detected any noticeable difference except when feeding a guitar amp with an input designed for magnetic pickups only. The majority of "acoustic guitar" amps and PA inputs already have an input impedance rated high enough to do the same thing that an impedance matching preamp will do.

It's best to try your K&K Pure Mini without a pre and add one in those cases where it benefits the sound.

I'm not trying to be a naysayer about preamps, but I think it's important to represent products fairly and provide factual information.

[SongwriterFan]

Open mic "rules" definitely vary. Most people don't bring any kind of pedalboard at all. But I have seen one person who used a looper pedal (both guitar and vocal mic - for his harmonica) a couple of times.

When I've brought a pedalboard (ToneDexter and EQ) or even the K&K pre-amp, I have always gone wireless between my guitar output and the input of the pre-amp/pedalboard, and then just plugged in their quarter-inch to the output of the pre-amp/pedalboard. There's usually a stool nearby (I prefer to stand), so I'll just set the pre-amp/pedalboard on the stool to make things easier/quicker.

I've run into two issues using the K&K: if the provided DI has a low impedance, it will strip the bass out of the guitar. Once it was so bad it sounded like I was playing an electronic piano, not a guitar. Even when I brought my own DI (passive), some places complain of "very low signal". So for those places I would bring the K&K pre-amp or Tonedexter.

If that's ALL the extra stuff you're bringing onto the stage, it's probably not a a big deal for most places (that I've seen). But, I also want to use my own mic (it does wonders for my vocals), and I also want to bring my iPad (and stand) onstage. So, being able to eliminate the pre-amp/DI/pedalboard made things a lot less hectic when I set up.

That's where the Yamaha Silent Guitar worked GREAT for me. No more messing around with outboard gear to fight the issues I was having, and it just sounds GREAT. Especially since I capo at 3, 4, or 5 for all of my songs. Every acoustic guitar loses bass when I do that (some more than others), but the Yamaha doesn't seem to do that. I don't know what magic they've employed to make that happen, but I really like it.

Last night, the open mic I went to had a different format than usual: they had two stools, and had pairs of us go up and do a song swap (3 songs each). To keep things running more smoothly, I didn't swap out my mic, and I didn't stand, and I didn't use my iPad (mostly).

All that being different than is my usual made for not as good a performance, IMO. Though it was very cool to be able to do a song swap format. Next time, I'd probably go ahead and swap out my mic, move the stool, re-adjust the mic stand so I could stand, etc.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Open mic "rules" definitely vary. Most people don't bring any kind of pedalboard at all. But I have seen one person who used a looper pedal (both guitar and vocal mic - for his harmonica) a couple of times.

When I've brought a pedalboard (ToneDexter and EQ) or even the K&K pre-amp, I have always gone wireless between my guitar output and the input of the pre-amp/pedalboard, and then just plugged in their quarter-inch to the output of the pre-amp/pedalboard. There's usually a stool nearby (I prefer to stand), so I'll just set the pre-amp/pedalboard on the stool to make things easier/quicker.

I've run into two issues using the K&K: if the provided DI has a low impedance, it will strip the bass out of the guitar. Once it was so bad it sounded like I was playing an electronic piano, not a guitar. Even when I brought my own DI (passive), some places complain of "very low signal". So for those places I would bring the K&K pre-amp or Tonedexter.

If that's ALL the extra stuff you're bringing onto the stage, it's probably not a a big deal for most places (that I've seen). But, I also want to use my own mic (it does wonders for my vocals), and I also want to bring my iPad (and stand) onstage. So, being able to eliminate the pre-amp/DI/pedalboard made things a lot less hectic when I set up.

That's where the Yamaha Silent Guitar worked GREAT for me. No more messing around with outboard gear to fight the issues I was having, and it just sounds GREAT. Especially since I capo at 3, 4, or 5 for all of my songs. Every acoustic guitar loses bass when I do that (some more than others), but the Yamaha doesn't seem to do that. I don't know what magic they've employed to make that happen, but I really like it.

Last night, the open mic I went to had a different format than usual: they had two stools, and had pairs of us go up and do a song swap (3 songs each). To keep things running more smoothly, I didn't swap out my mic, and I didn't stand, and I didn't use my iPad (mostly).

All that being different than is my usual made for not as good a performance, IMO. Though it was very cool to be able to do a song swap format. Next time, I'd probably go ahead and swap out my mic, move the stool, re-adjust the mic stand so I could stand, etc.

For my open mics, my mixer has two Hi-Z inputs, which I use for acoustic guitars. If people want to bring a preamp, looper, electric guitar or bass and amp, that's fine too. If they do bring an amp I'll mic it if necessary. I require vocalists to either bring their own mic or use a foam windscreen, the latter of which I'll supply, asking them to throw a buck in the tip jar. If someone has a reasonably complex setup, such as amp plus pedalboard, I ask that they have the equipment on stage and ready before their turn.

As far as mics go, I've had to provide additional EQ for some. One performer uses a headset mic, which requires significant bass boost. I have another performer who's guitar and vocals I have to compress the heck out of. And, of course, there are always volume differences between guitar pickups. If the guitar has a volume control, I have the performer adjust that first, but sometimes I have no choice but to adjust the input gain on the mixer to get the proper volume.

All of this is part of the process of hosting an open mic. I do make an effort to make each performer sound as good as possible, and they thank me for it. Of course, I can't do much if the problem is bad singing or playing!

[Br1ck]

K&K has changed then. My info was six or seven years old. I have however never experienced a piezo, K&K or otherwise, that did not sound better played into a devise with a 1 meg ohm input impedance. This could be an onboard pre, a passive or active DI, outboard pre amp, mixer channel with a hi-Z switch or an acoustic amp. Sample size of probably two hundred guitars over maybe five years.

I went to another open mic recently and heard a few more ice picky brittle piezos. Took a look at the mixer and discretely flipped the hi-Z switch. Afterwords, I told the host about it. She had no clue, so for your own protection, have a DI handy at least. Of course there are plenty that don't know or care what they sound like. I'm on a mission to educate. People deserve to sound as good as they can sound.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

By the way, the K&K manual does NOT state that you "need" a preamp.....

The majority of "acoustic guitar" amps and PA inputs already have an input impedance rated high enough to do the same thing that an impedance matching preamp will do.

It's best to try your K&K Pure Mini without a pre and add one in those cases where it benefits the sound.

Ummm.....no. The bold text above isn't entirely accurate. It could be true that most newer PA's have a high impedance (HI Z) input. It is true that most acoustic amps have a HI Z input. By no means have the majority of PA's that I've played through had HI Z inputs. Way less than half.

My Carvin AG300 has HI Z inputs and a preamp (Behringer ADI21, K&K Pure, RedEye) doesn't make any difference. It doesn't hurt the sound at all, but it isn't necessary. I always bring an impedance matching preamp with my gear if I don't know for a fact the sound system I'm plugging into has HI Z inputs.

[SongwriterFan]

The DI boxes I've run into at open mics that have issues with the K&K have been ones with ~50 k-ohm of input impedance.

I bought this inexpensive, very small passive DI, and it works MUCH better. Even with "only" 140 k-ohm of input impedance.

https://www.radialeng.com/product/st...specifications

[Rudy4]

Ultimately, the best thing you can do if you're using PA equipment that's unfamiliar is to bring a preamp and use it. It may or may not help, but as Mandobart relays, it doesn't hurt.

If you don't have a preamp or don't want to use one then the usual "open mic" situation can be accommodated by whoever is running sound by using the PA EQ, that's what it's there for. Is it ideal? No, but it's an "open mic", not a polished big ticket performance venue.

Here's the suggestion for impedance mismatch directly from the K&K Pure Mini manual:

"Acoustic amps and most competitors’ preamps are designed to work best with undersaddle pickups or other very high ohmic piezo pickups. They feature extremely high input impedance (5-10 meg), which boosts the bass response. Most competitors’ pickups need this high input impedance to boost their weak bass response.The Pure has a strong low-end response. It is overkill to boost it. The Pure sounds best with input impedance like 500 k to 1 meg. If you experience excessive bass response, plug the Pure pickup straight into the line input of a mixing board -- you’ll see that the excessive bass response is gone. The best option to compensate for excessive bass on an acoustic amp is to get a K&K preamp. It may still be necessary to turn down the bass control on the amplifier."

[6L6]

Even though I have K&K pups in all of my acoustics, nothing sounds as good as micing my guitars.

In pre-pandemic days, I reverted back to micing my guitar at Open Mics. I always sit when I play, so moving around is not an issue. I vary volume by moving the proximity of my guitar to the mic.

When our Open Mics resume I'll be sticking with this plan because the guitar tone is the best it can be.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Here's the suggestion for impedance mismatch directly from the K&K Pure Mini manual:

"Acoustic amps and most competitors’ preamps are designed to work best with undersaddle pickups or other very high ohmic piezo pickups. They feature extremely high input impedance (5-10 meg), which boosts the bass response. Most competitors’ pickups need this high input impedance to boost their weak bass response.The Pure has a strong low-end response. It is overkill to boost it. The Pure sounds best with input impedance like 500 k to 1 meg. If you experience excessive bass response, plug the Pure pickup straight into the line input of a mixing board -- you’ll see that the excessive bass response is gone. The best option to compensate for excessive bass on an acoustic amp is to get a K&K preamp. It may still be necessary to turn down the bass control on the amplifier."

Just because K&K says it doesn't make it technically accurate. I spent several years active duty in the USN as an electronics technician. I had lots of training on and experience with radar, radio and reactor plant control systems.

Years later I studied system dynamics as part of my BSME from the University of Washington. There is an irrefutable fact that whenever an unmatched interface occurs in any system, there is loss and distortion when transferring energy across that interface. The high impedance is inherent to piezoelectric pickups. K&K doesn't add it as a feature (no piezo mfr does). It's just there. A preamp does way more than boost a signal. It is there primarily for impedance matching. Some preamps (RedEye for example) actually attenuate the signal from the pickup.

A matched impedance at the instrument pickup to amplifying device interface is required regardless of the type or brand of pickup used. But K&K's manual is influenced more by the marketing people trying to tell you their product is better, than by their technical people trying to tell you how it works. To be honest, most non-technical lay people are more interested in and influenced by marketing than by boring technical facts.

[guitarxan]

A former band mate runs an open mike that I guest host at from time to time. When I host, I run a two player setup. I use my Mackey and JBL PA rig and have a Baggs Venue DI that I keep at the board for the primary guitar player. I use the venue DI to dial in each guitar, with pretty good success. I. Get compliments from players and the audience on the sound. I run another active DI to the secondary guitar player.

I am not a sound professional, not even close, but One thing i have learned…..The folks with Taylors and the blasted “Expression System”, are a PIA to mix and get a decent sound out of them. All mid, no bass and muffled highs. Plus they tend to feed back when driven ( I have several soft players). I know a lot of tone is player controlled, however the folks that come to play with Baggs, Fishman and the barn door Takamine’s always sound better.

My .02………. Find a nice Takamine or anything higher end with Fishman or Baggs, and you will sound good at virtually any open mike.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I'd worry less about the maximum quality of the sound and more about a dependable guitar that you "don't have to think about" so that you can work on getting the performance over with the audience of whatever size at the open mic. If I can assume the OP is singing, that's nearly the whole deal.

Just saw this . . and it is spot-on . . at least for me.

I needed a guitar that I could just "plug in and go" and not worry about how the guitar will sound. For me, that was the Yamaha Silent Guitar.


Ditto for a microphone: For me, that was the Shure KSM8.

Unfortunately, I can't do much about how the sound guy mixes my vocals with the guitar out in the house. But for me, it's my LYRICS that I want heard . . far more than my (in)abilities on the guitar.