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Old 10-12-2021, 01:39 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Default Question to Custom Shop builders

I figure what better place to get an answer but from Experienced Builders such as yourselves.
I have been doing saddles for years and are now doing my own nuts.
I was taught by a veteran luthier with great knowledge and experience. I know enough to get as flat of a bottom as possible for the best nut to neck contact.
Would love to get your inputs on:
* Glue mixture for nuts

I do not like CA's for nuts. I have found when removing Nuts Glued in with CA's that they cluster in spots. Seeming they do not spread evenly as standard white glues. Leaving spaces at the bottoms and side walls.

So I would like to know what is your preferred Glue for nuts & do you dilute the mixture? I have read reports of some diluting the glue to a 50/50 mixture of glue and water.
This is actually an important question for myself. I want the nut to come out easily in case in the future I need to replace. I use heavier gauge strings...and also have an unusual way of forming the nut ledge itself. I create a thinner area for which the string to rest upon.

This means that I could perceivably wear out the nut groove faster long term as there is less area for which the string to rest upon. While this method goes against what most typically like...it seems to suit my specific needs better. This is of course one of the advantages of CA, it comes out easier. So longing for the best glue and proper mixture that will give me the best contact and still be able to come out in the future with greater ease.
** Do you apply glue to both bottom and side wall of nuts? What do you use to spread the glue? Fingers? Another piece of wood? Q-Tip?
*** What Grit do you sand the bottom and sides too?
I no longer polish out saddles and nuts on a buffer. Don't like the compound getting into the pours. I am an unbleached bone preference type of guy. I find a difference in tone between Unbleached and bleached bone. Don't care about a high polish look either. Currently sanding out to 400 to 600 grit. I have in the past sanded to 800. But I wonder if there is a point of sanding that would actually give less contact?
And that less grit might offer better grip and certainly better gluing?
I would like to thank you in advance for any information and advice you have to offer. Looking forward to your replies.
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:24 PM
redir redir is offline
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by, "I have found when removing Nuts Glued in with CA's that they cluster in spots. Seeming they do not spread evenly as standard white glues. Leaving spaces at the bottoms and side walls."

Do you mean that you do not see the entire bottom and face of the nut covered in glue? That's not what you want. All you need is one very small dot of glue to hold a properly fitted nut in place and most seem to agree that the dot of glue is best placed on the face of the nut and fretboard end. CA is perfectly suited for this operation but I tend to use Fish Glue.

Titebond or even Elmers White would be fine too.
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:33 PM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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The nut should fit well enough that glue is not required. There is no reason to glue the bottom if the nut, and good reason not to. Removal becomes unnecessarily difficult and can easily pull up fragile neck wood. If I use glue, I glue only to the end of the fingerboard, and use the smallest possible amount of CA, as the goal is simply to hold the well fitted nut in place while the user changes the strings.
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:49 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post
I'm not quite sure what you mean by, "I have found when removing Nuts Glued in with CA's that they cluster in spots. Seeming they do not spread evenly as standard white glues. Leaving spaces at the bottoms and side walls."

Do you mean that you do not see the entire bottom and face of the nut covered in glue? That's not what you want. All you need is one very small dot of glue to hold a properly fitted nut in place and most seem to agree that the dot of glue is best placed on the face of the nut and fretboard end. CA is perfectly suited for this operation but I tend to use Fish Glue.

Titebond or even Elmers White would be fine too.
Do you use Fish glue as it is easier to remove like CA? Or do you use Fish glue because you believe it will transmit tone better? And what is your mixture?
As to answer you question, my mentor showed me how CA will not always allow the bottom to always seat absolutely flat as it should. The evidence was quite clear as that small dot of glue remained in that one spot when we removed the nut. And I could physically see that the nut was not set perfectly flat when looking from the side. I have actually seen this on a few guitars now.
His thing was that one of the most important factors was having a perfectly Flat bottom of the nut as well as the channel. He spent a long time removing all traces of glue from the channel. While the difference in seating is super small, and certainly hard to see, I now believe that this does make some kind of difference in transmission.
In my case, because of the way I am shaping the nut, different from the norm, and using heavier gauge strings, I might wear down the nut faster. Being able to remove the nut and not leave lots of bone material behind will make it easier to remove excess glue, bone material & keep the channel perfectly flat.
I watched him as he very patiently and thoroughly removed all the glue with but an exacto knife. I made the mistake of buying a bone nut file. The problem with that tool is it is going against mahogany which is relatively soft and easy to go to far. Previously, I have used a saddle slot file for leveling. This tool works great as there is little danger of removing too much material with an ebony bridge.
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:56 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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As others say, the nut should fit very well to begin with. The base of the nut should ideally mate well with the bottom of the nut slot. I add a few small score lines across the bottom of the nut and place a TINY line of Titebond along about 1" of the nut bottom, using the tip of a toothpick.

This small amount will spread out thin enough that it won't affect the fit and is simply to prevent the nut from shifting sideways when the strings are added. Any time glue is used the strings should be immediately tensioned to pull the nut down tightly in its slot.

If you're using a glue that fractures bone when you break the bond you're using the wrong glue.
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Old 10-12-2021, 03:01 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
The nut should fit well enough that glue is not required. There is no reason to glue the bottom if the nut, and good reason not to. Removal becomes unnecessarily difficult and can easily pull up fragile neck wood. If I use glue, I glue only to the end of the fingerboard, and use the smallest possible amount of CA, as the goal is simply to hold the well fitted nut in place while the user changes the strings.
Great info Bruce, appreciate your detailed answer.
I would also assume that there is less transmission to the end of the figerboard anyway. So I really like your idea of not gluing the bottom of the nut. My mentor used glue, as he was not concerned with later removal.
The only other reason why I would want to use something other than CA, even if applying only to side, is to give me more time to Lock down flat the nut.
In his method he used the strings to lock it down for gluing. Starting with the 3rd & 4th strings...then 5th& 2nd strings and of course lastly the 6th and 1st. There of course is more time to do this with glue vs. Ca which is super fast setting. That is why Fish Glue...sounds appealing. I would assume that like Hide glue it is easier to remove and clean?
Would still like to hear about What grit you use for bottom and sides?
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Old 10-12-2021, 03:06 PM
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Why any glue? If any a dab of titebond usually enough. Usually the only nut movement likely is sideways and when the strings are fairly slack.
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Old 10-12-2021, 04:25 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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What Bruce said.

I was taught to make the nut very slightly tapered; narrower on the treble end, so that it would slide in from the side and lock in place. It stays where you want it, and comes out with a light tap on the end. Failing that, I'd use the absolute minimum of either hide glue or CA on the end of the fingerboard; just enough to keep the nut from sliding sideways.

As I see it, the 'job' of the nut is to be perfectly stationary, to tell the string where to stop vibrating. Any sound transmission of the nut to the neck is well down on the list of things that contribute to tone, as far as I can tell.
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Old 10-12-2021, 05:20 PM
redir redir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Do you use Fish glue as it is easier to remove like CA? Or do you use Fish glue because you believe it will transmit tone better? And what is your mixture?
As to answer you question, my mentor showed me how CA will not always allow the bottom to always seat absolutely flat as it should. The evidence was quite clear as that small dot of glue remained in that one spot when we removed the nut. And I could physically see that the nut was not set perfectly flat when looking from the side. I have actually seen this on a few guitars now.
His thing was that one of the most important factors was having a perfectly Flat bottom of the nut as well as the channel. He spent a long time removing all traces of glue from the channel. While the difference in seating is super small, and certainly hard to see, I now believe that this does make some kind of difference in transmission.
In my case, because of the way I am shaping the nut, different from the norm, and using heavier gauge strings, I might wear down the nut faster. Being able to remove the nut and not leave lots of bone material behind will make it easier to remove excess glue, bone material & keep the channel perfectly flat.
I watched him as he very patiently and thoroughly removed all the glue with but an exacto knife. I made the mistake of buying a bone nut file. The problem with that tool is it is going against mahogany which is relatively soft and easy to go to far. Previously, I have used a saddle slot file for leveling. This tool works great as there is little danger of removing too much material with an ebony bridge.
Well your mentor may have a good point if you choose to glue the bottom of the nut. CA dries fast so it's possible that the nut was not seated correctly. In fact if the fit is too tight you may not be bottoming out the nut. And that might be another good reason why to only put it on the face of the nut and fretboard end. Again, as Bruce mentioned it's only glued in so that when you remove all the strings you don't lose the nut falling out. I don't like to make nuts really tight because when someone down the line tries to remove it they might splinter the head plate veneer. But they should fit nice and snug. Then the dot of glue is there to just hold it.

I like to use Fish Glue because CA is too fast. Fish has plenty of open time for me to position the nut. It has nothing to do with tone at all.
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  #10  
Old 10-13-2021, 10:57 AM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
[INDENT]Great info Bruce, appreciate your detailed answer.
Would still like to hear about What grit you use for bottom and sides?
I create the mating surfaces on my guitar nuts with my 6 x 48 sander, which is usually loaded with a 100 grit belt. The visible surfaces of my guitar nuts are sanded to 320 and polished on the pedestal buffer.

IMO, a well fit nut made from adequately hard material plays no meaningful part in the tone of the guitar, but a poorly fit nut can be detrimental.
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