Build Thread: Kraut Modified Dreadnought

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by riorider

First off, beautiful, Juston. Superlative. I've been following thread all along with great anticipation of the first "final" posts.

But - visually.... "very different"???

black coco <=> ebony; blue spruce <=> euro spruce

For something really different you need to go with something very red and quilted on the B&S and something rich and deeply colored on the top... Wait - I know that guitar!

Best,

Phil

Yeah, well ok I guess it's not a radical departure in terms of tone wood selection. I'm a big fan of the black/white contrast, as you know.

Tonally, it's pretty different from the Baranik. I love the variety.

Originally Posted by mikealpine

I know my BTO is not the equivalent of your new Kraut, but at least wanted to tell you that my Macassar Ebony backed guitar has blossomed into something really special, which I really didn't fully understand until recently. I had put it up for sale to fund a Stehr build coming, and in the time since it has been listed, it has changed really nicely. I think that yours, over the next few months, and even following in the next year or two will develop into all you want and more. Enjoy it through the changes, and please keep updating the post!!

Part of the reason I like to commission builds is that I actually like to be somewhat surprised by something new and different. So I've been fully prepared to keep my mind open and enjoy the new things ebony brings to the table. I'm excited to hear it mature.

Originally Posted by needspeed

I would love to see some pictures of it now that it is home.....Please, Please, Please ......Steve

I will shoot some photos when I get a chance. Ray has done such a good job of keeping me well-stocked with photos, but you can't have too many.

Originally Posted by Fsgeek

Congrats on the wonderful guitar... I think my guitar should be next in line...

What's on tap?

[haolebrownie]

Congrats on the beautiful guitar and thanks for posting detailed impressions. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts after things have settled in for a few months.

[Fsgeek]

Originally Posted by justonwo

What's on tap?

[justonwo]

Looks cool.

[Michael Watts]

Congratulations! I wish you many years of happiness together!

[justonwo]

Well, we are coming up on three weeks since the guitar was strung up and I've had it almost two weeks, with somewhere around 15 hours of playing time on it total. The sound has shifted heavily toward the fundamental. The initial overtone content seems to have given way to a mostly fundamental note and sustain has diminished considerably. The vast majority of the sound is focused in that initial attack, which means it's loud, but there is no real "bloom" to speak of and the notes fade quickly. There is a lot of heft in the bass but the bloom and sustain are absent there as well. It's a fairly staccato sound which is not terribly well suited to my tastes.

I requested that the guitar have more overtone and sustain than the East Indian Rosewood guitar I played at HGF. I believe we missed that target by a very wide margin - almost the polar opposite. Sadly, the guitar is quite dry, particularly in the trebles. While I understand these guitars change somewhat as they are breaking in, the trajectory of change with time seems to be toward more fundamental and less overtone and sustain - which is pretty much the opposite of what I had hoped. Very disappointing.

[needspeed]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Well, we are coming up on three weeks since the guitar was strung up and I've had it almost two weeks, with somewhere around 15 hours of playing time on it total. The sound has shifted heavily toward the fundamental. The initial overtone content seems to have given way to a mostly fundamental note and sustain has diminished considerably. The vast majority of the sound is focused in that initial attack, which means it's loud, but there is no real "bloom" to speak of and the notes fade quickly. There is a lot of heft in the bass but the bloom and sustain are absent there as well. It's a fairly staccato sound which is not terribly well suited to my tastes.

I requested that the guitar have more overtone and sustain than the East Indian Rosewood guitar I played at HGF. I believe we missed that target by a very wide margin - almost the polar opposite. Sadly, the guitar is quite dry, particularly in the trebles. While I understand these guitars change somewhat as they are breaking in, the trajectory of change with time seems to be toward more fundamental and less overtone and sustain - which is pretty much the opposite of what I had hoped. Very disappointing.

It causes me pain to read your post in that I would hope you would have had a private conversation with Ray to discuss your situation out of respect for your luthier.

I would think and expect that Ray would do what it takes to make sure you are happy. I do not know him in any way but I hope you will try to resolve your issue with him in private and not post such a bitting review here out of respect. Just my two cents......Steve

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by needspeed

It causes me pain to read your post in that I would hope you would have had a private conversation with Ray to discuss your situation out of respect for your luthier.

I would think and expect that Ray would do what it takes to make sure you are happy. I do not know him in any way but I hope you will try to resolve your issue with him in private and not post such a bitting review here out of respect. Just my two cents......Steve

I guess you are making the assumption that I haven't had that private conversation.

[needspeed]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I guess you are making the assumption that I haven't had that private conversation.

Yes I made the assumption (which can lead to stupidity on my part) So in the end, I am sad for both of you that it did not work out and hope the future looks brighter on the guitar front in your next commission......Good luck.......Steve

[racman]

Wow Juston, that sounds like a huge change in only a few weeks.

I can understand how disappointing that must be, but was wondering what the explanation could be if any? It just seems odd that a guitar would be spectacular at the outset and then change so dramatically in a few weeks. Could this be the guitar itself or environmental changes e.g. humidity etc. Certainly to me this type of change would suggest this or that some structural change has occurred in the guitar - would a loose brace have this effect? My apologies for the laymen's conjecture here but I am perplexed by this, as I am sure you are. Very interesting...

It does raise the question in my mind as to what degree the level of sustain and overtones is a product of the luthier's workmanship/skill or of the particular piece of wood or wood combinations etc.

Very sad to hear this and hoping that an improvement will happen in the next few weeks as well.

[justonwo]

I don't really know, Roy, and I can only speculate. There are no real environmental differences between where I live and where Ray lives. The relative humidity in my house is almost always between 40 and 60% and the temperature is usually reasonable.

I honestly have no idea what is responsible for the qualities I'm hearing. Is it the ebony? The bracing? The material thickness? All of the above? Some of the above? I don't really know. I specified a particular sound, not a particular wood, because I rely on the luthier to be able to translate the sound into the right selection of woods.

To be fair to Ray, after some rather stressful exchanges, he did ultimately agree to take a look at the guitar. In the final analysis, there was so much unpleasantness to get to that point with Ray (coming on the heels of quite a calamity in the fall, which is another gigantic can of worms) that I decided to give up. Ray never really gave me much understanding of what could be done or what he was willing to do. I do know he does not accept returns.

I suppose he could rework the guitar in some way, but my instinct is that the sound is much too far from the end goal to hold out much hope for that. That instinct is supported by others I have talked to who should know. I know he has gone through the rework process with others, and it ultimately seemed to compound the frustration and lead to more lost time for both parties.

I suppose if Ray were feeling really generous, he could offer to build a replacement. However, the end goal was missed in such a significant way on my first guitar, I'm afraid that's not a path I want to go down again. I don't expect anything moving forward. I'm unhappy with the sound of the guitar and I believe the tone I was going for was missed by a wide margin, but I can live with that. It's frankly better than agonizing through more confrontation working toward an unknown outcome.

[mikealpine]

Hey Juston, sorry for your disappointment! I will emphasize again that it took over two years for my guitar to blossom into "more." When I first strummed it, and I mean right from the very first strum, it was dry and quiet. It loosened up after a few weeks and became more rich, pickup up some volume in that time, and then settled for a while. And then it changed again, getting more and more lush and picking up additionally in volume. Not sure what your plans are with Ray, but you might want to keep this in the back of your mind, because it could take quite a while for the tone to fully develop. Of course you and Ray will know best, and I am sure will work out something that in the end will make you happy. Best of luck!!

[justonwo]

Ray also offered to fix the chip and two cracks in the headstock that the guitar was delivered with, but I will probably have those fixed locally.

Edit to clarify, chips and cracks on the lacquer.

[racman]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Ray also offered to fix the chip and two cracks in the headstock that the guitar was delivered with, but I will probably have those fixed locally.

WHAT!?

I really feel for you Juston...

[steveh]

Very, very sorry to hear this. I was once on the end of a commission that did not satisfy (an electric many, many years ago) and it ended very painfully for both me and the luthier. If you've saved hard and invested a whole lot of psychological energy into these things, it's really stressful when it doesn't work out. For the luthier as well. Backs then, there was no internet so the issue stayed between me and the luthier.

I agree completely with others that the guitar should improve with more playing. However, my personal experience is that such improvements are more about finessing rather than paradigm shifts; I've never experienced a "bad" guitar become "good" under such circumstances. My own MD was a little "tight" when I first got it but it was still very obviously a great guitar. A couple of months playing and the trebles softened etc but it was not a paradigm shift, it simply became better.

Does it sound better to the player or the listener? Have you A/B-ed it directly with a few other instruments. If you can, get the opinions of a few others who can get the guitar in their hands and experience it first hand. I know personally that I've sometimes lost perspective on how a commissioned guitar is performing - like I say above, so much energy is invested in these things, that it feels like a disaster if you don't immediately think the guitar is the best you've ever heard.

Cheers,
Steve