If Taylor's V-bracing is all that and a bag of chips

[Social Exodus]

Then you would think the crowded field of acoustic guitar makers would follow suit wouldn't you?

I'm not for it or against it, although full disclosure all my guitars are X-braced and I have all I need. It is just fairly standard that when company A has a big breakthrough, then companies B,C..Z follow along eventually.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

IMO it's just another bracing with some tradeoffs, things it does better and things it doesn't do better. I owned a 914ce for a year which did all the things Powers claimed. It was even across the sound spectrum. It had good projection for its size. It had near perfect intonation. It had pleasing overtones and it was super easy to get harmonics from it, not just from the 5/7/9/12/15 frets but also at the other frets (in comparison to non-V-braced guitars I own). Notes higher on the neck rang as loud as lower.

But ultimately, I would use the word "clinical" to describe it. When I took it along on my audition trip to try out boutique builders for the first time, it got traded in for my SCGC OM which was way more lively and exciting, if less "clinically perfect" than the 914ce. The OM just had that inspiring tone that made me want to play it more.

This Tuesday I was at a local shop to buy a D-18 MD. Since I was there and he had some Taylor Koas, I asked to try the three high end models he had, a K14ce v-class, a K14c v-class (no ES2), and a 2017 x-braced K24ce all koa. The K24 was a wonderful surprise, but just a little darker than the tone I was looking for, but it proved that x-braced Taylors are nothing to sneeze at.

I picked up the K14ce and was immediately reminded of my 914ce. Clinically perfect. Nothing exciting. I had brought my OM as a reference tone, and confirmed that it was still the superior (in that it was more pleasing and inspiring to me) instrument. I debated even picking up the K14c because it was exactly the same model without the ES2. Well, I was here, why not.

From the first strum it was apparent that this may be the single best Taylor I'd ever heard. It projected so well it felt like it activated every guitar on the wall. I called the shop owner out from the back and asked if he would listen to the two back to back. I strummed the K14ce and he nodded, as if to say "yup, that's classic Taylor sound." His jaw (masked, but I could see the movement) dropped and his eyes widened when I strummed the K14c once, careful to use the same force to the best of my ability.

We talked about why there might be this discrepancy. Lack of ES2 wouldn't explain it, a pickup install shouldn't affect tone this much. This was so much superior to the ce version. Way better projection. Sweeter mids and highs presentation. The top was activated/vibrated so much more with the same strum. I went back and forth with the K14s and my OM. The K14c and my OM's tops were equally lively in terms of movement, but the larger body made the K14c louder for the same effort (whereas the OM was louder than the K14ce and my 914ce which I traded in). This K14c projected louder than the D-18 MD which was a surprise to me.

Ultimately he theorized it may be similar to the Martin Custom Shop, where custom orders go through a different line of more highly skilled employees. Taylor's site doesn't list a K14c, only the ce. But he said he gets some customers who don't want electronics so he makes a point to buy a couple of non ES2 custom orders, and perhaps the person who selected the woods and the hands who put this K14c together were of higher skill than the standard Taylor workflow (or got extremely lucky).

Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying I think the v-bracing does do some/most of the things Powers claims, but whether that pleases you or not is totally up to each person.

But that there is ultimately no substitute for tonewood and build quality. I have now played 2 top-of-the-line v-braced guitars that were great by objective measurements, but uninspiring due to their clinical presentation, and one v-brace that immediately got into my rotation of fantastic sounding guitars. This K14c is what happens when great tonewood and construction meet v-bracing. But IME they aren't all like this, and most of the ones I've strummed through are of the clinical variety.

[Matts67]

It's tough for me to draw conclusions when only Taylor is utilizing the bracing pattern. The 717 is outstanding, but still lacks something compared to a boutique dread - then again, it's not a fair fight because it has a smaller body. The V-braced GA series guitars seem to sound a bit more sterile when playing open strings, but stellar when playing further up the neck. Once again, trade offs.

I'd really like to see the result comparing apples to apples in a different build, like a traditional square shoulder dread. I've heard George Gruhn's GP V-braced prototype is braced differently than the production guitars and sounds way better - I wish Taylor would make something like this available in an exclusive custom shop line, similar to how Martin does with the Authentics.

My biggest takeaway is that when playing further up the neck, the notes ring fuller on a V-braced guitar. GAs haven't impressed me, the 717 overall is outstanding for what it is, but it still lacks the tonal depth compared to a boutique square shoulder dread. Whether that's due to the size or something else, who knows.

[lossforgain]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

This Tuesday I was at a local shop to buy a D-18 MD. Since I was there and he had some Taylor Koas, I asked to try the three high end models he had, a K14ce v-class, a K14c v-class (no ES2), and a 2017 x-braced K24ce all koa. The K24 was a wonderful surprise, but just a little darker than the tone I was looking for, but it proved that x-braced Taylors are nothing to sneeze at.

I picked up the K14ce and was immediately reminded of my 914ce. Clinically perfect. Nothing exciting. I had brought my OM as a reference tone, and confirmed that it was still the superior (in that it was more pleasing and inspiring to me) instrument. I debated even picking up the K14c because it was exactly the same model without the ES2. Well, I was here, why not.

From the first strum it was apparent that this may be the single best Taylor I'd ever heard. It projected so well it felt like it activated every guitar on the wall. I called the shop owner out from the back and asked if he would listen to the two back to back. I strummed the K14ce and he nodded, as if to say "yup, that's classic Taylor sound." His jaw (masked, but I could see the movement) dropped and his eyes widened when I strummed the K14c once, careful to use the same force to the best of my ability.

We talked about why there might be this discrepancy. Lack of ES2 wouldn't explain it, a pickup install shouldn't affect tone this much. This was so much superior to the ce version. Way better projection. Sweeter mids and highs presentation. The top was activated/vibrated so much more with the same strum. I went back and forth with the K14s and my OM. The K14c and my OM's tops were equally lively in terms of movement, but the larger body made the K14c louder for the same effort (whereas the OM was louder than the K14ce and my 914ce which I traded in). This K14c projected louder than the D-18 MD which was a surprise to me.

Ultimately he theorized it may be similar to the Martin Custom Shop, where custom orders go through a different line of more highly skilled employees. Taylor's site doesn't list a K14c, only the ce. But he said he gets some customers who don't want electronics so he makes a point to buy a couple of non ES2 custom orders, and perhaps the person who selected the woods and the hands who put this K14c together were of higher skill than the standard Taylor workflow (or got extremely lucky).

That's a great story, and I have to say I have had a few of those experiences with Taylor as well. I like their guitars (used to love them), but everything new I pick up just doesn't inspire me like they used to. The last one I had that was really special was a BTO, so there may be something to your theory about the best workers being on the custom jobs.

BTW, I remember you bought your H&D not that long ago, so I am very surprised to hear you are buying another dread so soon!

[canyongargon]

I would really love to see some current small shop luthiers really play with the Taylor V bracing design and see what it can really do with the kind of careful voicing and attention you can’t do in a large factory setting.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Social Exodus

Then you would think the crowded field of acoustic guitar makers would follow suit wouldn't you?

I'm not for it or against it, although full disclosure all my guitars are X-braced and I have all I need. It is just fairly standard that when company A has a big breakthrough, then companies B,C..Z follow along eventually.

Wait for the patent to expire in 2035 and see what happens.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9520108B1/en

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by Matts67

...The V-braced GA series guitars seem to sound a bit more sterile when playing open strings, but stellar when playing further up the neck...

My biggest takeaway is that when playing further up the neck, the notes ring fuller on a V-braced guitar. GAs haven't impressed me, the 717 overall is outstanding for what it is, but it still lacks the tonal depth compared to a boutique square shoulder dread. Whether that's due to the size or something else, who knows.

You may have something with these statements. Every v-class I've owned or played absolutely rings fuller (in comparison to other big-builder guitars) further up the neck. I think what sets the K14c I ended up taking home (just when I thought I'd never buy another Taylor, no less) is that it also rings out well in open chords (which is more where I live than up on fret 20, despite the cool bevel on the cutaway. If this didn't do that, it would still be in the shop and I'd either have that 2017 X-braced K24 or the D-18 MD

Originally Posted by lossforgain

That's a great story, and I have to say I have had a few of those experiences with Taylor as well. I like their guitars (used to love them), but everything new I pick up just doesn't inspire me like they used to. The last one I had that was really special was a BTO, so there may be something to your theory about the best workers being on the custom jobs.

BTW, I remember you bought your H&D not that long ago, so I am very surprised to hear you are buying another dread so soon!

I absolutely love my H&D, and play it...well maybe not daily given how many guitars I now have, but several times a week for sure!

It was the 000 sinker mahogany that made me thirst for a 'hog cannon. The 000 was my first mahogany b/s guitar and it just brings something to the table that's different in a pleasing way to EIR's scooped EQ sound. Full disclosure, I have grown to dislike acoustic pickups sound. I did not like the ES2 on my now departed 914ce, ironically the pickup I've ended up liking the most has ended up being the B-Band A2.2 on my Lakewood, and alas B-Band as a company is no more. Anyway, the 000 made me want that mahogany sound in a cannon so that I can project easily in bigger rooms without having to dig deep (all of my guitars can get loud and project, but sometimes there's nothing like that "easy projection" that a Dread can give).

That's why I was set on the D-18 MD...and why I was equally surprised when for the guitars I was auditioning, the K14c was the one that had the most "easy projection" when strummed with medium effort.

Between your BTO experience and my K14c experience...there may be something to Taylors that don't come out of the "standard production line models". I mean, we have a sample size of two so that's a promising start!

[Social Exodus]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Wait for the patent to expire in 2035 and see what happens.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9520108B1/en

Yeah, that's true.

But still, similar designs that just skirt the patents happen in other areas.

Heck, I'm no lawyer, and I don't even play one on television.

[SprintBob]

I don’t believe it is fair to compare Taylor production guitars (even their higher end 600-900 series and the K-series) to boutique guitars like SCGC, Collings, Froggy Bottom, H&D, Goodall, etc. I’ve owned lots of Taylors and I had no regrets on each one and was always happy with my purchase. I have a lot of respect for the level of quality and value they offer the guitar playing community. But after I got my first Collings (an OM1A) and after I added a couple of years later my current SCGC 00 and the Froggy H-12, I was left with only a beautiful all koa K-22ce 12 fret. My take on it was if it was the first guitar I picked up in the morning when my body and hearing were well rested, it was absolutely wonderful with the most sweet balanced tone I could ask of it. But when I would then play one of my “boutique” guitars, I would feel more than hear a difference. Those guitars would resonate through your body more than the Taylor. It did not bum me out because I believe the extra you are paying for a boutique guitar is more time and care on the details of the voicing of the guitar that is typically not practical for a production guitar like the K-22. I think over time, the K-22 would have opened up more and the result might have been different with a K-14 with a spruce or Adirondack top but there are practical limits to what to expect.

If Taylor can reduce the difference I perceived with their V-Bracing, perhaps I should give them another look. LakewoodM32’s experience above with the K-14c is certainly interesting.

[Quakeroatmeal]

Is Taylor truly embracing their new v brace though?

It felt like last year it was all the rage, but it almost seems like they're moving on at this point?

[Matts67]

Originally Posted by Quakeroatmeal

Is Taylor truly embracing their new v brace though?

It felt like last year it was all the rage, but it almost seems like they're moving on at this point?

How are they moving on if they're still utilizing it?

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Not only still utilizing it, but moving it to other parts of the product line (initially it was 9xx and presentation series).

They're not "getting past it" IMO, they're incorporating it to become just part of what it means to go with a Taylor.

[waterlooz]

My experience is that Taylors have a "post production" quality right out of the sound hole. This is good, right? Perhaps or perhaps not?

This can be extremely intoxicating and I believe this to be a huge factor in their popularity. They sound good, play well, etc. They are in fact excellent instruments but after owning 7 Taylors and selling 5, I personally find them too perfect. Note: I still own a 2015 522e and a baby "t" that I dont play much.

I like the sound of my Waterloo (L braced) more because it inspires me. I find it has soul, grit, and sounds woody even though sonically compared to a Taylor, it is less refined, less "post production" sounding.

To me, it is what an acoustic guitar should sound like. I cant explain it and if it were the opposite, that would be great too. It's all part of one's own tone quest.

This all is obviously subjective but as V Bracing goes, it's just another way to do the same thing that the letter X or L has been doing for several years.

[Willie_D]

This is what I like about Taylor, TBH. They're after their own thing. If they wanted to sound like Martins or Gibsons, they would. Taylors sound like Taylors. I like that Taylor believes that acoustic guitar design has not been perfected, and are willing to experiment.

I'm one of the ones who loves the Taylor sound.
A good number of you love the Martin sound.
A good number of you love the Gibson sound.

If we all liked the same thing, it'd be boring.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by waterlooz

This all is obviously subjective but as V Bracing goes, it's just another way to do the same thing that the letter X or L has been doing for several years.

And this is the operative statement. Many talk about how differences in scalloped bracing, using red spruce for braces, hot hide glue, forward shifting, rearward shifting, etc. all make a difference. So using that logic, v-bracing should have a palpable impact based on its significant departure from the standard X.

Now whether one likes that difference, that's totally personal preference. I can understand both sides, having played over a dozen that "didn't do it for me" and one that now is part of the arsenal and stands proudly with my SCGC, H&D, and Martin Customs.

The argument I never understood was the "it doesn't make a difference, it's all marketing". Unless of course that person also believes shifting braces forward or backward, using different adhesives, and different materials for braces also makes no difference. In which case I'll give them credit for consistency, but still politely disagree with their assertion.