designated hitter...

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by CoffeeFan

I'm for it.

The majority of the time pitchers are horrible batters. If a pitcher comes to the plate with bases loaded and two out, he's probably not gettin' any RBI's that inning...

You say that like it’s a BAD thing! That’s the beauty part. The manager has to consider if the pitcher is still strong, do you trade off the increased chance of scoring runs right now for keeping a strong pitcher in the game. Not to mention the implications of keeping your bullpen strong over the course of the next week. It keeps the game interesting.

Originally Posted by Coop47

I'm a traditionalist and want to be anti-DH, but the strategy argument doesn't seem to hold as much value as it once did. How often does the touch decision about when to pull for a pinch hitter come up? I'd rather see an additional pitcher-hitter duel than ever see a pitcher come up to bat wearing a warm-up jacket and to make a token appearance.

To me, the best argument for the pitcher hitting is that it discourages head-hunting.

Most pitchers were great hitters in high school and college (if they went to college). Most of them take it seriously even if they mostly suck in the Bigs. And when a pitcher DOES have a hot bat, it’s more fun than almost anything. I’ll never forget being at a Phillies / Giants game in 2012 or so, when Matt Cain and Cole Hamels took each other deep in consecutive half-innings. It’s among the most memorable baseball moments in all the years I’ve been a fan.

https://www.mlb.com/giants/news/matt...ing/c-35339064

To me, DH baseball is just stone boring. There’s more offense, but so what, there are just so few tough decisions to be made in those games. Homers are exciting because they’re relatively rare. Whey there are too many of them, even they get boring...

-Ray

[jpd]

"DH baseball is just stone boring. There’s more offense, but so what, there are just so few tough decisions to be made in those games." Ray



I wouldn't say it's boring- rain delays are boring- that bit about tough decisions is what I focus on. IMO, the structure of the game gets messed up by the "trickle down" effect of the DH...it is an abomination to the strategy that was once baseball and has now become "Home run Derby". Soon the MLB will have wiffle ball games

[MakingMusic]

I used to be an AL fan but when I moved to a new state without an AL team, I became all NL. And my opinion of the DH rule has changed along with it.

I used to believe the DH inserted more offense into the lineup. Wrong. You would think the AL would crush the NL in total number of runs scored. Believe it or not, in 2019 the AL scored an average of only .11 more runs per game than the NL. So if added offense is off the table, isn’t it fun to watch a pitcher hit, or at least try to hit. I think it makes the game more exciting when one of them does come through. I have to admit it does seem odd to have a sport where each league has different substantive rules but I like the difference and it’s even more fun with all the inter-league play. I love watching the AL pitchers try to bat. Go NL!

[flagstaffcharli]

I used to be against it since I grew up a Cubs fan. But here’s the thing; pitchers are usually terrible hitters and they sometimes get hurt doing it. So I’ve changed. I’m for it.

Except, when a pitcher decides to old school hit a batter - then let him hit and face up to what he did. (I know that’s not practical, but some old school stuff like Intentionally hitting batters is just dumb.)

[Birdbrain]

The pitcher might be able to hit a little bit, or bunt well, which is an art in itself. But because he's not been selected for his hitting ability, a pitcher up at bat is a stand-in for the rest of us, an everyman. That's lost with the DH.

[EJWalker]

I'm not a huge fan of the DH, but watching a guy who only hits once every 5 days flail away and give up and easy out is annoying. On the other hand, now that a reliever has to pitch to 3 batters before being pulled, that I see as more of negative change in the game.

[Fogducker]

The Detroit Tigers had a sorry hitting pitcher, Justin Verlander (Great pitcher, lousy hitter) and earlier in Detroit's past, they had Earl Wilson who was good at both skills. He was such a good hitter, he was called on to pinch hit in some situations. I abhor the DH! After playing the game since they were youngsters, pitchers can at least learn to make contact and put the ball in play!

Fog

[H165]

For.

I grew up knowing every player on every team in both leagues. Listened to baseball every day and night. Played every day in summer and every chance we got at school or after.

As I got older, I finally started thinking it's the most boring spectator game on the planet, and probably in the Milky Way. Turns out I'm right: "A baseball fan will see 17 minutes and 58 seconds of action over the course of a three-hour game".

Anything that makes it more interesting is good.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by H165

As I got older, I finally started thinking it's the most boring spectator game on the planet, and probably in the Milky Way. Turns out I'm right: "A baseball fan will see 17 minutes and 58 seconds of action over the course of a three-hour game".
.

At worst, only the second most boring:

"An average professional football game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes, but if you tally up the time when the ball is actually in play, the action amounts to a mere 11 minutes."

[jpd]

Originally Posted by Fogducker

The Detroit Tigers had a sorry hitting pitcher, Justin Verlander (Great pitcher, lousy hitter) and earlier in Detroit's past, they had Earl Wilson who was good at both skills. The game was more enjoyable with the latter.

Fog

They also had Mickey Lolich in the 68' World Series hit one out while winning 3 games...ah, the good ol' days!

[Mr. Paul]

Don't need to see field goal kickers try to run the ball.

Don't need to see pitchers try to hit.

Not a bb purist in any sense. If I were I'm sure I'd abhor the DH.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Paul

Don't need to see field goal kickers try to run the ball.

Don't need to see pitchers try to hit.

Not a bb purist in any sense. If I were I'm sure I'd abhor the DH.

You raise and interesting point with the field goal kickers. How about complete specialization in baseball too? A lot of players are good field, no hit type guys. Lucky if they hit .220 in the bigs. Teams get them because they balance their defense against their limited offense. So why not just have two complete lineups - 9 guys to play in the field, and 9 completely different guys to hit. An offense and a defense. That way, you'd always have the best offensive specialists against the best defensive specialists. It'd be the height of the sport, right? Why not just take it all the way?

Football basically evolved like that. Early on, nearly every guy on every team played both ways, offense and defense. Then more and more specialists started to change the game and there were a lot who played both ways and a lot who didn't. And now, basically nobody does except the occasional freak like Deion Sanders and even he mostly did it for show, not a regular thing. And then played two sports too - insane!

Isn't that the logical conclusion of this argument? I don't need to see some wizard shortstop who's not much of a hitter weighing down the lineup. Never have to pinch hit - change pitchers whenever you want to with almost no downside.Still have to manage the arms, but let's let each team have 20 relief pitchers, then you wouldn't even have to worry about that.

I think that game would be boring, as I find the game with the DH, but you could make an argument for it. It's the same basic argument as the one for the DH. Different only in degree.

I still have to think how this would work for basketball and hockey???

-Ray

[Coop47]

Originally Posted by raysachs

Most pitchers were great hitters in high school and college (if they went to college). Most of them take it seriously even if they mostly suck in the Bigs. And when a pitcher DOES have a hot bat, it’s more fun than almost anything. I’ll never forget being at a Phillies / Giants game in 2012 or so, when Matt Cain and Cole Hamels took each other deep in consecutive half-innings. It’s among the most memorable baseball moments in all the years I’ve been a fan.

https://www.mlb.com/giants/news/matt...ing/c-35339064

To me, DH baseball is just stone boring. There’s more offense, but so what, there are just so few tough decisions to be made in those games. Homers are exciting because they’re relatively rare. Whey there are too many of them, even they get boring...

-Ray

I remember watching that on TV, and I have to admit it was pretty cool. But when facing a competent DH, there are defensive and pitching decisions made on every one of those at bats, whereas a pitcher's at bat is really just a formality most of the time. I completely understand your point about the PH strategy that comes up maybe once a game with no DH, but aren't most of those decisions pretty much self evident.

I was at Fenway for Roger Clemens' first at bat when the manager (I think it was Jimy Williams) screwed up the lineup and lost the DH. I was also there when Jose Canseco pitched for the Rangers. Both really unique and fun moments, but nothing I want to see in every game.

Anyway, agree to disagree. And for what it's worth, I'd rather have the NL without the DH for variety, but not because it's more interesting.

[The Watchman]

Even worse than DH is the new "extra innings" rule. Where each team starts their 10th with a ghost runner on second. Even though my team KC won this way yesterday, its still not right. The ghost runner scored without a there being a hit.

Undecided about the rule that pitchers must face a minimum three-batters.

[12barBill]

Originally Posted by The Watchman

Even worse than DH is the new "extra innings" rule. Where each team starts their 10th with a ghost runner on second. Even though my team KC won this way yesterday, its still not right. The ghost runner scored without a there being a hit.

Undecided about the rule that pitchers must face a minimum three-batters.

I was hopeful for some kind of MLB season this year but I am quickly becoming disenchanted. Artificial baseball in empty stadiums for the sake of TV revenue is what I am seeing.