Song writing and grammar?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

So how do you feel about grammar and lyrics?

Well, to expand on what I said, there are two different sets of rules to think about:

Grammar: use the same grammar that you naturally use when speaking. If you normally use words like "ain't" or double negatives ("ain't got no"), use those. They're perfectly grammatical, in the sense that they are "correct" within the rules of that kind of slang or dialect. (It's mistake to apply the rules of one form of language to another for. Just as it's a mistake to try to apply the rules of classical harmony to a blues or rock song. Vernacular languages have their own rules, just as vernacular music does.)
If you don't normally speak like that, you might get away with singing like that if those rules belong to the genre you're writing in (eg blues, country, rock'n'roll, R&B), but it's going to sound fake if your normal speech is very different.
But the question is only, how much does that sort of fakery matter? Who will object? Do you care?
Most audiences accept a level of artifice, because performance is a kind of theatre: as a singer, you're not necessarily yourself up there, you're playing a part, acting a role. But that very much depends on the genre. Rap, for example, is very unforgiving of rappers who are faking it, because the whole point of that genre is to express one's own reality and experience. But if you're singing a traditional sea shanty, not many listeners are going to object if they can tell you're not a sailor.

Lyrics: lyrics are best when their rhythm is close to the natural rhythms of speech. That's the crafts of scansion and prosody.
They should usually also rhyme, without the rhyme sounding forced. I.e., it's a mistake to change the word order into something unnatural just to get the rhyming word in the right place at the end of the line. That's the "Yoda speak" risk.
A few songs get away without rhyming lines, by making the lines of unequal length. I.e., when lines are the same length, we expect them to rhyme - either in simple AABB couplets, or alternating ABAB rhymes. Extending or shortening the length of the line can makes us forget about the need to rhyme.
"Moonlight in Vermont" is a great example of how a song can work with no rhyming lines at all, by diverting expectation by using irregular line lengths and surprising chord changes.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Great stuff.

This was a kind of English equivalent.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Ha! But ya got me a thinkin'

A entire song done in Yoda prose might be kind of fun

Weird Al has already done it, I'm sure.

[PHJim]

Originally Posted by JonPR

As I'm sure you know, that song - originally "Mbube" and making perfect sense in Zulu - has a long and fascinating history: largely one of exploitation and theft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_Sleeps_Tonight

The chanted "Wimoweh" resulted from Pete Seeger mis-hearing the recorded version of Mbube given to him by Alan Lomax. Soloman Linda's version used the chant "Uyimbube", but the Weavers' mondegreen changed it to "Wimoweh".

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by JonPR

... lyrics are best when their rhythm is close to the natural rhythms of speech. That's the crafts of scansion and prosody.

Seems to me that these are observations about stuff that works in your estimation, rather than "rules."

And I'm admittedly cherry-picking here, but re the above quote, what's your take on the scansion and prosody in, say, "Sounds of Silence?"

[Denny B]

On this topic, I'm pretty much on THIS page...

“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”

― Pablo Picasso

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by JonPR

As I'm sure you know, that song - originally "Mbube" and making perfect sense in Zulu - has a long and fascinating history: largely one of exploitation and theft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_Sleeps_Tonight

Originally Posted by PHJim

The chanted "Wimoweh" resulted from Pete Seeger mis-hearing the recorded version of Mbube given to him by Alan Lomax. Soloman Linda's version used the chant "Uyimbube", but the Weavers' mondegreen changed it to "Wimoweh".

Interesting... Yes I was aware of the song , but not the history. I suppose like many like many boomers , I was only aware of the no. 1 hit version by the Tokens..... I was simply replying tongue in cheek to Mr Jelly's post.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Seems to me that these are observations about stuff that works in your estimation, rather than "rules."

Well, yes. It seems to me that it's stuff that the vast majority of other songwriters do, so it seems they feel the same.
It's obviously not "laws", it's "common practices" to make stuff sound right. As with all musical "rules".

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

And I'm admittedly cherry-picking here, but re the above quote, what's your take on the scansion and prosody in, say, "Sounds of Silence?"

I guess you mean the accents on "soft-ly", "was slee-ping", "a street lamp", and so on.

I find them uncomfortable, but not too much. The melody is so strong, and the word order so natural (when spoken) that it kind of demands the phrases have to fit like that. To try and re-arrange the phrases to avoid those accents would probably result in worse word order. Paul Simon is a songwriting genius, no doubt, and I don't know of another song of his that sounds as stiff as Sounds of Silence - but he was a young man then. It always sounded to me - even back then - like a kind of beginner protest song, quite formulaic, taking itself a little too seriously.

But the one that always annoys me more - makes me almost squirm in discomfort - is Sir Duke, when he sings:

"Music knows it is and always will
Be one of the things that life just won't quit"

Not only a heavy accent on "the" but a very awkward word order just to get a rhyme (and not a great one) for "forget" on the end of the next pair of lines. It kind of sounds like a poor translation from a foreign language, a tortuous way of expression the sentiment.

Stevie Wonder is obviously supremely gifted when it comes to writing melodies and chord sequences, but his lyric writing is not to the same standard. (Obviously most of lyrics scan fine, but they're still not as inspired or inspiring as his music.)

I don't think I've ever heard a Dylan or Leonard Cohen song with this kind of clumsy lyric. I can't recall a Beatles song with similar flaws either. (Maybe you can... ) My favourite Dylan quote is when he was asked what he was most proud of in his work. He said "making the words fit." It seems he feels the same about the over-riding importance of that: the craftsmanship of scansion and prosody. It's one of the things that make his songs so singable (the other is his melodies). (I'm not saying every Dylan song is great. There are some clunkers. Every genius has a bad day, or has to write a filler for an album...)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Interesting... Yes I was aware of the song , but not the history. I suppose like many like many boomers , I was only aware of the no. 1 hit version by the Tokens..... I was simply replying tongue in cheek to Mr Jelly's post.

Right. The interesting thing for me - although I love the raw power and rhythm of the original - is that there's a good argument for saying that the covers teased out that great melody, that was only really hinted at in Linda's improvised lines. Like taking a rough diamond, polishing it and giving it a flattering setting.

The story of the copyright is a sad but unsurprising one - but good to see Pete Seeger was one of the lone good guys in the story.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Right. The interesting thing for me - although I love the raw power and rhythm of the original - is that there's a good argument for saying that the covers teased out that great melody, that was only really hinted at in Linda's improvised lines. Like taking a rough diamond, polishing it and giving it a flattering setting.

The story of the copyright is a sad but unsurprising one - but good to see Pete Seeger was one of the lone good guys in the story.

Yes and referring back to your other post with your interpretations of Grammar and Lyrics
I agree with most of what you say , especially that "faking it" (accent, phrasing etc.) is usually not a good idea, because for me in the larger sense a great performance feels like the performer believes and or identifies with the subject matter. As some say feels authentic.

However I would postulate that "lyrics are best" ( and represent prosody best) when syllabic structure fits with, or in sync offset , to the rhythm structure of the music, much more so than the rhythm of natural speech (as a general notion) At least for me

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Interesting points. The trouble is that American local styles have become highly influential and popular in widely different locations and countries, even non-English speaking ones. British pop singers always tried (and still do) to sing with generic American accents, because it's part of the sound of rock'n'roll. The Beatles allowed elements of scouse to emerge, but they were trying to copy Americans. Likewise Mick Jagger can't help the occasional London vowel spoiling his "American".
It sounds comical to sing rock music with a natural British accent. David Bowie kind of managed it - after excruciating cockney efforts early in his career, he settled into a natural enough London surburban accent which he made suit his songs. Ian Dury just went for comedy cockney, which also worked because it felt natural, and he wasn't attempting American singing styles.

There are similar issues in Britain to those Southern US accents, e.g., if an English singer attempts a traditional song in Scots dialect, for example. A Scottish person would naturally crack up or curl up in embarrassment, but so would most English speakers.

The problem is that so many of us want to sing "foreign" songs because we love them, and there aren't enough cool songs from our own culture, sung in our own accents or dialects.

It's all true.

I run a club where almost everyone sing American or American influenced songs, and I really do hear some funny faux accents.

I must admit that I also adopt various American accents depending on the region that the song applies to.

I know that I'm not perfect, but good enough for American folks to ask me whereabouts in the US I come from on some of my Youtube vids, although, of course on my "chatty" videos I speak in my normal southern English accent.

I know that there is no American accent, any more than a British accent.

At least my American pronunciation is better than Dick Van Dyke's "cockerney"

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

At least my American pronunciation is better than Dick Van Dyke's "cockerney"

To you, maybe. :-)

My unattainable goal is to to sing "Desafinado" in Portuguese and fool a Brazilian.