Changed string gauge, no relief!

[Joe2548]

Hi everyone;

I purchased a new Takamine GD30CE - NAT a few weeks ago from Kraft Music in Wisconsin - great service and prices btw.

Set-up was fine out of the box until I changed strings from 12 gauge down to 11; now I cannot get the relief I like - .013 at 5, 6, 7th frets.

Truss rod is fairly loose, but string tension does not seem to be sufficient to pull proper relief into the neck.

(1st fret action is about .020 , 12th fret action about 5/64.)

Must I use .012 gauge strings to get enough relief? I have had many guitars and am pretty familiar with doing my own set-ups.

Thanks for any suggestions you might have,

Joe

[Wade Hampton]

It sounds to me as though that’s what the guitar requires.


whm

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Joe2548

Set-up was fine out of the box until I changed strings from 12 gauge down to 11; now I cannot get the relief I like - .013 at 5, 6, 7th frets.

Truss rod is fairly loose, but string tension does not seem to be sufficient to pull proper relief into the neck.

Assuming you're measuring relief at the 7th fret with a capo at the 1st and holding down the E string at the 14th, that sounds like a lot of relief to me - double the amount of relief I have in my guitars' necks. I shoot for 0.005" - 0.006" which gives me buzz-free playing with 12th fret action at 3/16" and 5/32".

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[Joe2548]

Thanks for your input;

I will double-check and see what the relief is now,
and yes, I do measure exactly as you describe.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Assuming you're measuring relief at the 7th fret with a capo at the 1st and holding down the E string at the 14th, that sounds like a lot of relief to me - double the amount of relief I have in my guitars' necks. I shoot for 0.005" - 0.006" which gives me buzz-free playing with 12th fret action at 3/16" and 5/32".

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

I agree... Most of my guitars are buzz free at 0.007" or less. Is it possible that the nut is cut too deeply?

[Pitar]

I had a similar problem with a guitar. It was built to take .013s. Relief could be adjusted for .012s, but not lower. I messed with it for awhile and decided that it was what it was. It was a Goodall RCJC.

Question to the know-mores here: Can a double-acting rod put more relief into the neck than it would normally have at rest (loose strings)? IOW, instead of turning the wrench clockwise to flatten relief, would a counter-clockwise direction increase it? I've never tried it but the description (double-acting) implies it does.

[bluetweed]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Assuming you're measuring relief at the 7th fret with a capo at the 1st and holding down the E string at the 14th, that sounds like a lot of relief to me - double the amount of relief I have in my guitars' necks. I shoot for 0.005" - 0.006" which gives me buzz-free playing with 12th fret action at 3/16" and 5/32".

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

are you sure that's your action? 3/16" is 12/64", twice the height of a Martin's medium action/ at that height you would never buzz
you measuring from the fingerboard or top of fret to the bottom of the string at the 12th fret?

[YamahaGuy]

You mentioned the truss tod is "loose" this reminds me of my Yamaha LL16M which had a dual action truss rod. My first experience with one, and it scared me to death, as I feared the nut falling off the threads, but sure enough once I loosened it enough, the 'tension' re-engaged and I was able to get ample back bow.

My bet is you have a dual action truss rod, and you just need to keep backing it off.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tszyuXjWQIMnB4

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Pitar

Question to the know-mores here: Can a double-acting rod put more relief into the neck than it would normally have at rest (loose strings)? IOW, instead of turning the wrench clockwise to flatten relief, would a counter-clockwise direction increase it? I've never tried it but the description (double-acting) implies it does.

Yes, it can certainly do that.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by bluetweed

are you sure that's your action? 3/16" is 12/64", twice the height of a Martin's medium action/ at that height you would never buzz
you measuring from the fingerboard or top of fret to the bottom of the string at the 12th fret?

Aha, good catch! Of course I meant 3/32" and 5/64", top of twelfth fret to underneath of string. It was time for bed and my tired old brain confused itself. I thought it sounded odd when I read my post but...tired old brain!

Thanks for the nudge!

[bluetweed]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Aha, good catch! Of course I meant 3/32" and 5/64", top of twelfth fret to underneath of string. It was time for bed and my tired old brain confused itself. I thought it sounded odd when I read my post but...tired old brain!

Thanks for the nudge!

no worries , I just thought you had the worlds strongest fingers

[blindboyjimi]

You don’t say why you need extra lights yet require above average relief. If you are looking for relief over 0.010” then you must have a very serious hard pick attack and need the light gauge strings to get relief. Or perhaps you capo very high and get buzz with dropped tunings. Either way that’s a lot of relief and actually out of spec of many manufacturers. It is possible that you have a double action truss rod, but that would be listed on your manufacturer’s website. I’d definitely check that before backing off you truss rod too much.

Personally, I have a light pick attack and play mostly with bare fingers so my action is low and so is my relief. I do play in DADGAD, open D (DADF#AD) and open G so I keep a bit extra relief those guitars and use long scale OMs. If I do get buzzing, I’ll go up a half gauge first like a set of Elixer (med/lights or HD lights). So that’s like doubling your extra lights. Even then my numbers are 3/32 (0.095”) and 2/32 (0.065”) with 0.005” relief.

Perhaps you could build your own set of light (on the bass 3) and extra light (on the treble 3) or vise versa.

[Joe2548]

Originally Posted by YamahaGuy

You mentioned the truss tod is "loose" this reminds me of my Yamaha LL16M which had a dual action truss rod. My first experience with one, and it scared me to death, as I feared the nut falling off the threads, but sure enough once I loosened it enough, the 'tension' re-engaged and I was able to get ample back bow.

My bet is you have a dual action truss rod, and you just need to keep backing it off.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tszyuXjWQIMnB4

Exactly right - double-action truss rod!

I continued to turn counter-clockwise as you suggested and it tightened-up again and increased relief. Now I can get the .010 to .013'' relief I have always had; I realize many of you use less than this, but this is always what has worked for me.
I now have action at first fret at .015'', and 12th fret action at 3/32.

I am happy again; thanks to everyone.

[YamahaGuy]

Glad you got it dialed in. It troubles me when people give up on instruments because they are afraid to adjust something that is, by design, adjustable. Congrats on a job well done!

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Joe2548

Exactly right - double-action truss rod!

I continued to turn counter-clockwise as you suggested and it tightened-up again and increased relief. Now I can get the .010 to .013'' relief I have always had; I realize many of you use less than this, but this is always what has worked for me.
I now have action at first fret at .015'', and 12th fret action at 3/32.

I am happy again; thanks to everyone.

I don't understand why you feel you must have such a lot of relief. Most players try to have the neck as near flat as is practical.

Have you considered experimenting, by sticking with 12-54s (11s really are way too light for a Dread, IMHO), setting relief around 0.005"- 0.006" and, if necessary, raising the saddle a little (either by shimming the existing saddle or, preferably, installing a new, taller saddle) to give you your 3/32" 12th fret action? You might be surprised - I'm certain you'd find it a lot easier-playing, especially in the middle of the neck. It's a fact that a properly-set-up guitar with mediums should be just as easy to play as, or even easier than, a badly-set-up guitar with extra-lights. My Dreads have 13s, and they feel no different in playability to my Lowden (and previously, my Martin OM) with 12s - they all have 0.005" - 0.006" relief, and 12th fret action of 3/32" and 5/64".

If you don't like it, you can always go back to the original measurements. Or you could take it to a good, reputable set-up tech/luthier and have him do the work on it - sometimes the experience of a knowledgeable third party can work wonders.

EDIT: Just noticed where you're based - perhaps 'good, reputable set-up tech/luthiers' are in short supply down there?
Here's a great reference for set-up data and technique - http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/

Absolutely no criticism intended, and definitely not looking for a fight - I'm just a little puzzled.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.