Difficulty Hearing My Lead Tone When the Band Plays....

[clintj]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

Well, I have tried more than one of my current amp builds. To be honest, I have lately been using the amp based on a Fender Champ (single-ended 6V6) simply because it is the lightest, and thus easiest for my to lug around. I use a Sennheiser 609e microphone on the speaker (a 12" Weber Blue Dog). This has been my "go-to" amp for the most of my playing with this band.

I have also, however, used the Trainwreck-modeled circuit (4 x EL84s) to try something different which I thought was most-different from the Champ circuit. (Also once played the 2 x 6V6 "Dumble-esc" circuit, but that seemed too gain-y).

Let me say "Thanks" once again to everyone for their helpful replies.

The Champ can work well, it just may need a bit of bass trimmed to focus the sound and boost clarity. They suffer from a lack of headroom and compress a lot when pushed hard, but do get a nice crunch. I prefer the Weber Sig8A for some nice tight tones in that amp, and a speaker with tight bass in general for most of the tweeds due to the loose bass response of the circuits.

The EL84 Trainwreck (the Liverpool I believe) is Vox based and should have nice projection. The Dumbles, IIRC, come from the BF Fender family of amps, and would have a natural mid scoop.

I can offer some tips on Champ mods that can help tighten the sound if you like, or point you in the direction of some info. As a few others have noted, the key in a band mix is to heavily cut bass and push some mids to be heard when needed. My Bassman is only 40W, but doesn't struggle in the least to be heard even against much larger amps due to its naturally midrange heavy sound.

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by clintj

The Champ can work well, it just may need a bit of bass trimmed to focus the sound and boost clarity. They suffer from a lack of headroom and compress a lot when pushed hard, but do get a nice crunch. I prefer the Weber Sig8A for some nice tight tones in that amp, and a speaker with tight bass in general for most of the tweeds due to the loose bass response of the circuits.

The EL84 Trainwreck (the Liverpool I believe) is Vox based and should have nice projection. The Dumbles, IIRC, come from the BF Fender family of amps, and would have a natural mid scoop.

I can offer some tips on Champ mods that can help tighten the sound if you like, or point you in the direction of some info. As a few others have noted, the key in a band mix is to heavily cut bass and push some mids to be heard when needed. My Bassman is only 40W, but doesn't struggle in the least to be heard even against much larger amps due to its naturally midrange heavy sound.

OP,

I've really enjoyed following this thread. Thanks for asking us and for being so active in your replies.

And hey, I like a Champ as much as the next guy, but there is no way that little fella is going to clear the drum/bass/other electric high bar.

You almost for sure need more watts. You'll know as soon as you switch rigs.

So my money is now on: speaker pointed at ears, more watts, less gain, more volume from pedals, less bass and low mids, more mids and highs.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by clintj

The Champ can work well, it just may need a bit of bass trimmed to focus the sound and boost clarity. They suffer from a lack of headroom and compress a lot when pushed hard, but do get a nice crunch......
I can offer some tips on Champ mods that can help tighten the sound if you like, or point you in the direction of some info. As a few others have noted, the key in a band mix is to heavily cut bass and push some mids to be heard when needed. ....

Clint,
It sounds like you have some familiarity with this circuit, as you describe it fairly well. My own knowledge level regarding tube amps is.....well......I know some things......I have some opinions......but I also recognize that there is a lot that I DON’T know. I would be delighted to hear your thoughts on voicing this amp, but I also don’t want you to be offended if you suggest something that I may have already tried and passed on. I think the Weber Blue Dog is okay, but I am not married to it. I do want to try to work with what I already have for right now, as opposed to spending a lot more money.

If you feel so inclined, please share your amp-tweaking thoughts.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by stevecuss

OP,
.......I like a Champ as much as the next guy, but there is no way that little fella is going to clear the drum/bass/other electric high bar.

You almost for sure need more watts. You'll know as soon as you switch rigs.

So my money is now on: speaker pointed at ears, more watts, less gain, more volume from pedals, less bass and low mids, more mids and highs.

Steve,
You may be right, but I would like to at least see if I can get the Champ (5F2A circuit) to work better for me. I am almost always mid-in the amp and running into a PA, however, so I feel like this should not be a matter of sheer volume.
It does struggle with head-room......that I freely admit. Another limitation is the single tone knob on the amp. I have been using an Empress Para EQ pedal to help sculpt the input signal, but that might not be enough. I suspect that some benefit may be realized by voicing the actual amp circuitry. More to do......

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

Steve,
You may be right, but I would like to at least see if I can get the Champ (5F2A circuit) to work better for me. I am almost always mid-in the amp and running into a PA, however, so I feel like this should not be a matter of sheer volume.
It does struggle with head-room......that I freely admit. Another limitation is the single tone knob on the amp. I have been using an Empress Para EQ pedal to help sculpt the input signal, but that might not be enough. I suspect that some benefit may be realized by voicing the actual amp circuitry. More to do......

Yeah man, the Champ is a legend in the recording studio but not in the live music scene. 5 watts cranked is going to be compressed and relatively quiet. Great, great tone though.

[jomaynor]

The last thing a guitarist who is losing the drum 'n' bass wars needs is a Champ.

A Twin, however, can stand toe-to-toe with any basher, and sound glorious doing it, too.

[Mr. Jelly]

I've seen some Champ mods that are master tone monsters. I have a friend that used to run a small Peavy amp with a full band. He'd set it ear high and mic it. If he wanted to hear himself better he'd just move closer to the amp. Simple!

[clintj]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

Steve,
You may be right, but I would like to at least see if I can get the Champ (5F2A circuit) to work better for me. I am almost always mid-in the amp and running into a PA, however, so I feel like this should not be a matter of sheer volume.
It does struggle with head-room......that I freely admit. Another limitation is the single tone knob on the amp. I have been using an Empress Para EQ pedal to help sculpt the input signal, but that might not be enough. I suspect that some benefit may be realized by voicing the actual amp circuitry. More to do......

So, sounds like you have a Princeton, not a Champ. The circuit number and tone knob match up.

The first thing you can do to tighten up the amp's sound is a couple of cap swaps. From V1a, the input stage, the first change I'd make is to swap the cathode bypass cap from 25uf down to 4.7uf or smaller. 2 to 4uf is where the change first starts to become noticeable. This trims some bass, which helps prevent the low muddiness especially when overdriving the amp. If that's to your liking and you'd like to experiment a little further, the coupling cap for that stage is the next stop. Stock is .02, you can lower that value by half or more to find a value you like. The third swap you can do is change the first filter cap from 16uf to 22 or even 30uf. This cap forms the foundation of the power supply, and upping the size some will let the amp better handle bass notes and transients. Don't go over 30 if you're running a tube rectifier instead of solid state diodes or a Weber copper cap.

[MikeBmusic]

If you are putting your sound through the PA (believe you said that) - miked amp, I assume - can the audience hear your leads ok? If so, you just need to get your guitar UP in the monitor mix, or the easy fix - get the amp off the floor where it's pointing at your knees. A simple adjustable angle amp stand can do wonders.

[Paultergeist]

All,

I very much appreciate the dialog and the helpful replies. Thanks to the suggestions, I at least have a number of things to try.......and that is exactly what I intend to do: try a number of things.

As circumstances would have it, I am going to be out of town most of next week, and my more-immediate time reserves are very limited. Please do not think I am dismissing anyone's good ideas -- I simply may not be able to try out some of these suggestions until after next week. I shall try to follow-up on this thread with some observations when I am able to test out some ideas. I am especially intrigued about re-voicing the tone-shaping circuitry inside of the amp itself. More from me when I have more to add.

In the meantime, thank you everyone!

[redir]

I use a Fender Twin and one does not have these problems with a Fender Twin

But even so I kick back the amp so it points at me. It makes a HUGE difference. Guitar amps are very directional so it could be that your sound is just whizzing right by you.

[jomaynor]

Originally Posted by redir

I use a Fender Twin and one does not have these problems with a Fender Twin

But even so I kick back the amp so it points at me. It makes a HUGE difference. Guitar amps are very directional so it could be that your sound is just whizzing right by you.

Yep, a Twin is just a superb all-around gigging amp. Rich and full, and it takes pedals so well. With a Twin, you always have enough rig for the gig.

[tippy5]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

There are different ways to accomplish what you are trying to do..
1) Use a small amp set it about ear high, turn up and mic it.
2) A good 40 watt amp with mid-range like a Marshall Blues Breaker and no peddles. The mid-range cuts through.
3) Old school Fender amp turned up with the bass turned down and no peddles. In a band situation it sounds better than you think.

I've seen really good guitarists crap out on stage because they don't run their sound for a band situation. Like switching to all kinds of different sounds and gains only to be lost to everybody. What sounds good with just a guitar most likely won't work on stage. What sounds good on stage might not sound good to the room. Gain and compression are killers.

A lot of pedal boards sound great at home at low/med volumes. Sound a little less great at practice facing each other. And sound absent soloing on stage.

Getting a sympathetic solo connected to your amp playing medium levels at home against a backing track is easy to dial in, and more importantly feel.

To cut through at gigs on a new stage, room or even outdoors one might have to lose that physical amp immediacy. Unless you are playing Grand Funk on 10. In a way it is more of a trust thing at gig level. Less of the intimate moving air of your amps speaker. Whether or not your signal is in the PA (nice trend). Or with your combo amp and all band members. Or with the sound man in charge.

I like my combo amp(s - Stereo gigs periodically) on a 3' high angled amp stand right in back of me. Old school but at least I know I won't completely disappear.

The other ideas of less time based pedals and using the bridge PU more at gig level than at home or practice is good.

My next build is an Esquire. They cut through the mix and sound huge at gig level volume. Ric's cut through too. Go brighter than at home and roll off the amp lows for solo's. EQ pedals are nice for larger gigs. That tele might sound weak at Guitar Center but turned up at gigs they cut.

[Mr. Jelly]

I might add that this subject has something to do with my issues with hearing now that I am in my mid 60s. Nobodies got much I want to hear about anyway

[M Sarad]

Deluxe Reverb. A twin is awfully heavy. The EV speakers in mine didn’t help.