At What Pricepoint Do Highend Guitars Not Sound Any Different?

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by GHS

I think the saddest part of this is that most of the ultra high end builds, ( now I could be wrong but...), wind up in the hands of collectors...talented maybe, but still collectors with the disposable income to have such fine instruments. And so many super talented musicians will never be able to afford them and bring the music within those instruments to the world.

My Bourgeois came from a collector. It's a 2014 model that was bought new in 2018 and when I traded for it, it was in MINT condition! No wear at all!! Even the fretboard looked new. I was glad to get it used, because trading for it was the only way I could ever have a Bourgeois!!

[tadol]

These days there are quite a few extremely talented musicians who play at home, with friends, or occasionally play out - but making any money at all playing music is virtually impossible. You certainly can’t buy a $20,000 guitar on a musicians wages. One of the best guitarists I’ve heard recently is a senior database manager for a large tech company, who has incredible equipment in perfect shape, who goes out and gigs with a number of different people and groups, and it is Definitely not for the minimal pay he may (or may not) get.

The other side of the problem is audiences are so used to hearing impeccably recorded and reproduced music, they dismiss the incredible nature of live performances. I remember that virtually every big-name show I’ve been to in the last few years has had a substantial number of people in the audience more involved in talking with their friends, taking pics of themselves at the show, or even talking to other friends on their phones, than actually listening and experiencing the performance. I’m much happier going to a small venue and hearing an “unknown” play with some skill and passion, and leave them a good tip.

Collectors serve their purpose - they help create an economy that allows so many builders to refine their craft without having to put every build into the hands of a really great player. And they help preserve those instruments, so when their passions lessen, or a life changing event occurs, those instruments make their way back into the world, ready for another collector, or a great player, or even just a slightly better off than others player, who will appreciate and grow with that instrument.

My very finest guitars were bought used - at less than they went for new, and far less than they would cost to re-create now. I’ve given away a couple of high end guitars to musician friends that are incredibly talented, and needed a higher quality instrument to grow their skills and talent. I’ve left notes on a couple guitars that if something happens to me, I know people I want them to go to - if they’ve outlived me.

As long as that special guitar is taken care of - it still has just as much music, and just as much potential, and will be an object worth passing on to another, and be treasured by them -

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by Datcoolguy

As the title implies at what point do the high end Taylor's or Martin's etc. stop sounding any different, say between the $2000 mark vs $3k-5k?

Wood can only sound so good audibly, I just dont want to buy a 5k guitar when a 2k option isnt any distinguishably different to the ear. Playability is also a factor, but again a piece of wood is a piece a wood. At what pricepoint is this basically not a problem anymore?

Thanks in advance

True, but so much of it has to do with what each individual luthier's passion, sensibilities and expertise brings to each piece of wood. This is where a musician/player has a chance to dial in things that are specific to their ears and tonal requirements. As others have already noted, price is a separate aspect that is driven by other factors. If you play a bunch of $2,000 guitars and a bunch of $5,000 guitars, your ears and hands will tell you which you prefer and why.

Enjoy the journey. When I was first looking for a new guitar, I must have played 75 instruments - new and used, all price points - and really learned what I needed to learn about which worked best for me.

Best,
Jayne

[Birchtop]

Sorry, late to this thread. Not sure how I missed it.

All I can say is all guitars sound different, no two are the same. Even identical make and models. I've heard some pretty fine $300-400 guitars before. And I've also played some $2000 solid wood guitars that sounded pretty bad.

This goes for electrics as well.

It's all what sounds good to you and your music.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

There is an underlying assumption in your question -- the assumption of diminishing returns as price goes up.

Sometimes there are no diminishing returns. Sometimes the best guitars are the most expensive, depending, of course, on the player being capable of bringing the best out of the guitar.

I have heard some players play a high end guitar and it sounded no different than a very modestly priced guitar. So the player matters a great deal.

But take a very good player and hand him or her a very good guitar and it will generally sound better than a lower cost guitar. Not always, of course. There are outliers. But in general really expensive guitars are expensive because they sound better. They may also have a lot of expensive ornamentation, but my experience with expensive guitars that are very pretty is that they also sound outstanding.

- Glenn

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

I get the generality. Any examples?

Examples? Well...

As an example of a player who does not make a good guitar sound good:

When I purchased my Collings OM1 with custom Adirondack spruce top and dread-depth body, I asked the salesman to play the guitar for me so I could listen out front. This experiment was a failure. He was a nice guy but not a very good player. To make matters worse, he had the darkest tone I have ever heard from a guitar player, as if the flesh on his fingers were little black holes, soaking up all the high frequencies coming off this guitar. That Collings OM1 could have been just about any guitar to make the sounds he was getting out of it.

Regarding more expensive guitars sounding better:

I have about a dozen acoustic guitars, from a Voyage-Air VAOM6 to a Taylor 514CE to a 1967 Martin D-35, a 2018 D-45, a 2006 000-28VS, a Collings OM1ADB, a Santa Cruz OM/PW, Santa Cruz FS, Gibson Advanced Jumbo Luthier's Choice from 2002, a 1995 Olson SJ (cedar over EIR), and a handmade Gerald Sheppard GA Ave Maria. I think I have a large enough range of guitars that I know the sound of a really good guitar from a good guitar.

I don't necessarily want to use only one guitar for everything I play, no matter how good the guitar is. But I know what guitar I would keep if I had to take only one to a desert island. It would be the most expensive and most beautiful guitar I own -- the Sheppard. Of course, I would hope that the humidity on this island would be right at about 50% RH, which is about where the humidity is where I live.

- Glenn

[GHS]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

My Bourgeois came from a collector. It's a 2014 model that was bought new in 2018 and when I traded for it, it was in MINT condition! No wear at all!! Even the fretboard looked new. I was glad to get it used, because trading for it was the only way I could ever have a Bourgeois!!

Nice score. I see this in so many pursuits. Car shows are the worst. So many great cars are trailer queens...never see the pavement they were meant to tear up....and the owners just dust them off and put them back inside for the next show. I like to see the Jackson auctions in AZ. when they sell for 20 cents on the dollar it cost to restore them and maybe....just maybe wind up in the hands of someone who will use them before they leave the planet.

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Examples? Well...

As an example of a player who does not make a good guitar sound good:

When I purchased my Collings OM1 with custom Adirondack spruce top and dread-depth body, I asked the salesman to play the guitar for me so I could listen out front. This experiment was a failure. He was a nice guy but not a very good player. To make matters worse, he had the darkest tone I have ever heard from a guitar player, as if the flesh on his fingers were little black holes, soaking up all the high frequencies coming off this guitar. That Collings OM1 could have been just about any guitar to make the sounds he was getting out of it.

Regarding more expensive guitars sounding better:

I have about a dozen acoustic guitars, from a Voyage-Air VAOM6 to a Taylor 514CE to a 1967 Martin D-35, a 2018 D-45, a 2006 000-28VS, a Collings OM1ADB, a Santa Cruz OM/PW, Santa Cruz FS, Gibson Advanced Jumbo Luthier's Choice from 2002, a 1995 Olson SJ (cedar over EIR), and a handmade Gerald Sheppard GA Ave Maria. I think I have a large enough range of guitars that I know the sound of a really good guitar from a good guitar.

I don't necessarily want to use only one guitar for everything I play, no matter how good the guitar is. But I know what guitar I would keep if I had to take only one to a desert island. It would be the most expensive and most beautiful guitar I own -- the Sheppard. Of course, I would hope that the humidity on this island would be right at about 50% RH, which is about where the humidity is where I live.

- Glenn

The Sheppard sounds superb. And you have quite a stable! I can't recall ever having played a guitar costing more than $5K or so. In general, with TONS of exceptions, the guitars I've played have tended to sound better moving up the food chain. It appears the trend does continue north of $5K at any rate.

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by GHS

I think the saddest part of this is that most of the ultra high end builds, ( now I could be wrong but...), wind up in the hands of collectors...talented maybe, but still collectors with the disposable income to have such fine instruments. And so many super talented musicians will never be able to afford them and bring the music within those instruments to the world.

I don't really see it that way. For me a real instrument isn't covered in blingy inlays and nonsence. It gets the job done and doesn't need to be diamond crusted to justify its existence. An ultra-high end guitar is more like a work of art - a sculpture in wood.

Something like this is so pretentious that it almost doesn't deserve playing (yours for $40,000 on eBay)

[Arthur Slowhand]

Edit: I was rambling!

[bufflehead]

Back to the original question: the correct answer is $8,500. (Which roughly corresponds to the price of a D-45.)

[mmasters]

There's special ones at every price point. I would say though the tone maxes out on the special ones at about the 10K price point.

[CitizenAudio]

I don't have any high-end boutique shops within traveling distance, I don't think (correct me if I am wrong and you are familiar with the Oregon area). I would love to be able to demo some of the high tier samples.

I think you can't put a price on what feels and sounds right to you. What would be a mistake is to either betray (trade-in) a great guitar that speaks to you because of the tantalizing prospect of getting something more expensive/exotic or to have the mindset that the guitar you own cannot be surpassed by another guitar out there.

The odds of it are just too great to be wrong

[jrs146]

I think there are a few critical tiers where the price points matter.

- $600-700 - gets you a solid top with quality laminate.
- $1500 - 2000 this gets you into solid wood with mahogany/Rosewood

-$2500-5000 - going to get you higher quality wood/build and extra bling.

I think over $5,000 the spectrum really starts to plateau. Doesn’t mean the sound doesn’t improve at all but not at the same magnitude as $500 to $5000

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by RalphH

I don't really see it that way. For me a real instrument isn't covered in blingy inlays and nonsence. It gets the job done and doesn't need to be diamond crusted to justify its existence. An ultra-high end guitar is more like a work of art - a sculpture in wood.

Something like this is so pretentious that it almost doesn't deserve playing (yours for $40,000 on eBay)

Doesn't deserver playing? And the guitar's pretentious?

It's a work of art that deserves appreciation by those who can.

[Larry Mal]

Originally Posted by RP

I'd imagine that the quality of guitar recordings is more about the recording process and equipment than it is about the cost of the guitar...

I'm not sure why the thread progressed any further than this, really. This was all the information needed right here.