New MARTIN went BOOM off the UPS Truck 12/6 Update

[RP]

Originally Posted by russchapman

The buyer is always taking the risk- coming and going. They own the guitar both ways, and the seller really doesn't have any money on the line in either direction.

Dr. Phil should eat less pancakes, and Ted could have offered some kind of help.

I don't know if Dr. Phil eats pancakes any more than I know what kind of assistance Ted offered/provided because neither provided input for this thread...

[Vancebo]

Well, I should be clear. I hold no animosity toward LA Guitar for not refunding me anything. It’s UPS that needs to be able to ship things without damaging them. I used the standard carton and packaging from Martin and UPS’ original response was that I didn’t pack it according to their specifications so they denied my claim. Every MARTIN guitar shipped does not measure to UPS specs.

This responsibility belongs on UPS! I am glad Ted will not resell that guitar as new. That makes me want to do business with him again knowing that his merchandise is not possibly flawed.

Technically the insurance company would end up with the guitar if they decide to pay in full. They might decide to offer a fair price for the loss of value. I think this should be interesting case to follow.

[619TF]

Originally Posted by russchapman

The buyer is always taking the risk- coming and going. They own the guitar both ways, and the seller really doesn't have any money on the line in either direction.

Dr. Phil should eat less pancakes, and Ted could have offered some kind of help.

You have contradicted yourself here. Plus Ted is in business as already stated. He did nothing to cause the loss. Basically you're saying that despite the risk borne solely by the buyer, the seller here should take a loss "just to help". Riiiiight.

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

Well, I should be clear. I hold no animosity toward LA Guitar for not refunding me anything. It’s UPS that needs to be able to ship things without damaging them. I used the standard carton and packaging from Martin and UPS’ original response was that I didn’t pack it according to their specifications so they denied my claim. Every MARTIN guitar shipped does not measure to UPS specs.

This responsibility belongs on UPS! I am glad Ted will not resell that guitar as new. That makes me want to do business with him again knowing that his merchandise is not possibly flawed.

Technically the insurance company would end up with the guitar if they decide to pay in full. They might decide to offer a fair price for the loss of value. I think this should be interesting case to follow.

You definitely have the right attitude. I know I would just be hopping mad at whoever.

[russchapman]

Originally Posted by 619TF

You have contradicted yourself here. Plus Ted is in business as already stated. He did nothing to cause the loss. Basically you're saying that despite the risk borne solely by the buyer, the seller here should take a loss "just to help". Riiiiight.

I'm not contradicting myself, I'm contradicting everyone else.

[619TF]

Originally Posted by russchapman

I'm not contradicting myself, I'm contradicting everyone else.

INCLUDING yourself it seems (as I pointed out in bold earlier).

[russchapman]

Originally Posted by 619TF

INCLUDING yourself it seems (as I pointed out in bold earlier).

Let me clarify. The buyer is on the hook whenever the guitar is in transit. The dealer never has any risk in the transaction- just like I said.

But the part I left out is: I don't think that's fair. If anything goes wrong, it's always the buyer who has money out there. Not the dealer.

Yes, I do think Ted could come to the table. There are options here: offer the guitar at cost to the buyer, or do a partial refund and then sell the guitar used on LA Guitar Sales.

And as far as 'hidden damage,' any used guitar might have 'hidden damage.' Offer it for cheap, say it was a return where the case was damaged and don't leave your customers high and dry. My opinion, obviously.

[jljohn]

Originally Posted by russchapman

Let me clarify. The buyer is on the hook whenever the guitar is in transit. The dealer never has any risk in the transaction- just like I said.

How do you get to this conclusion? If I purchase a guitar from a dealer and it is shipped to me, the seller is on the hook for it not arriving as expected. If it fails to show up or shows up damaged, I have not received what has been contracted for. Unless I agree to some form of shipment contract, the guitar must be delivered in the agreed condition or the seller hasn't met the terms.

What happens on the way back is less clear and subject to various circumstances, but, on the way to the buyer, the guitar is still the seller's responsibility.

[russchapman]

Originally Posted by jljohn

How do you get to this conclusion? If I purchase a guitar from a dealer and it is shipped to me, the seller is on the hook for it not arriving as expected. If it fails to show up or shows up damaged, I have not received what has been contracted for. Unless I agree to some form of shipment contract, the guitar must be delivered in the agreed condition or the seller hasn't met the terms.

What happens on the way back is less clear and subject to various circumstances, but, on the way to the buyer, the guitar is still the seller's responsibility.

Sure, but the buyer is still the one with the money out there. They always are. And that makes things complicated, because the seller can dispute any complaints from the buyer (exclusive of shipping damage or maybe not!) 'it wasn't damaged when I shipped it, etc...'

Where's the money? In the sellers hands. It always is.

But whatever. I've made my point that Ted could have made some accommodations that didn't have to hurt his bottom line. But he didn't.

[PTL]

Only read the last page and a half so I may not know all the details.

But my take:

1. Shipper is responsible to insure the guitar.
2. Shipper is responsible to pack properly.
3. Shipper is responsible to make claims as shipper insured.

So a dealer shipping out is the shipper. He is responsible if something goes wrong - to make a claim.
So a buyer returning is the shipper in that case. He is responsible if something goes wrong - to make a claim.
However, if the seller pays for shipping in return - that makes things complicated in case buyer claims it was packed properly and seller claims it was not. I always keep ALL the packaging and repack EXACTLY as received in case of damage.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by PTL

Only read the last page and a half so I may not know all the details.

But my take:

1. Shipper is responsible to insure the guitar.
2. Shipper is responsible to pack properly.
3. Shipper is responsible to make claims as shipper insured.

So a dealer shipping out is the shipper. He is responsible if something goes wrong - to make a claim.
So a buyer returning is the shipper in that case. He is responsible if something goes wrong - to make a claim.
However, if the seller pays for shipping in return - that makes things complicated in case buyer claims it was packed properly and seller claims it was not. I always keep ALL the packaging and repack EXACTLY as received in case of damage.

I was responsible to pack the contents exactly as I received it and I did that. As the shipper, I am the responsible party to make the claim. This is on UPS to make it right.

[RP]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

I was responsible to pack the contents exactly as I received it and I did that. As the shipper, I am the responsible party to make the claim. This is on UPS to make it right.

Let me first say that I'm impressed by your attitude in this difficult situation. However, as a shipper, whether returning the guitar to the dealer or sending it to a buyer, you're responsible for packing it according to the shipping company's policies, even if they vary from how it was packed when you received it.

I too marvel that Martin, Taylor and others seem to "under pack" when they ship a guitar; and I can only assume that they've figured that works more than it doesn't. I've sold and shipped a bunch of guitars, and have been complimented on the thoroughness of my packing. My technique is based on what I consider to be optimum, not necessarily (and not usually) how I received it. Look at it this way, I can't really complain too loud if I'm pulled over for speeding, and the other 20 cars who were also speeding were not pulled over...

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by RP

Let me first say that I'm impressed by your attitude in this difficult situation. However, as a shipper, whether returning the guitar to the dealer or sending it to a buyer, you're responsible for packing it according to the shipping company's policies, even if they vary from how it was packed when you received it.

I too marvel that Martin, Taylor and others seem to "under pack" when they ship a guitar; and I can only assume that they've figured that works more than it doesn't. I've sold and shipped a bunch of guitars, and have been complimented on the thoroughness of my packing. My technique is based on what I consider to be optimum, not necessarily (and not usually) how I received it. Look at it this way, I can't really complain too loud if I'm pulled over for speeding, and the other 20 cars who were also speeding were not pulled over...

Ha. Maybe so. So does LA Guitar then take responsibility since his instructions were to return the guitar packed the same way in the same packaging? Just worth discussing.

[RP]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

So does LA Guitar then take responsibility since his instructions were to return the guitar packed the same way in the same packaging?

I would tend to think so....

[Mr. Paul]

Your loss is $ value of new case + $ depreciation of instrument, the difference between what you paid and what you can sell this guitar for... on a $2700 guitar, maybe $2100. I think this is how a real insurance company like Heritage would settle this claim.

UPS owes you about $900. Their Fairy Tale insurance is a nice source of revenue for them but there are multiple "insufficient packaging" stories like yours that explain how their insurance isn't really insurance at all.

Standard packaging will protect guitars/cases that are thrown around by folks in a hurry. Your guitar experienced something much more traumatic. Everyone here knows that.

UPS also knows that, their policy is to pretend they don't.