Will 12 frets be enough for me? And other concerns...

SWIED · #1 10-09-2022, 06:53 AM

I have been searching for a guitar for a long time now, and I keep coming back to the Alvarez AP66. I have heard so many good things about it and I love how simple it looks. For reference; it has 12 frets, 24" scale length, and a 1 3/4" nut width. I am 6'1, but don't necessarily have big hands. The dreadnaught I currently have is too big for me to play comfortably on the couch.

I had a phase where all I played was a Stratocaster before becoming primarily an acoustic player, so that has in some ways shaped my playing style. I play a lot of bar chords and flat pick 90% of the time. I do a lot of fills between chords that include bends, slides, hammer ons, pull offs, etc. I play "cowboy chords" about 50% of the time. (I play a lot of bluesy stuff; John Mayer is a big influence. But I also dabble in other styles as well) Short scale guitars and their ease of playing ergonomics are an attraction to me.

My #1 priority is having something that is very comfortable and fun to play. I suppose my concern with the Alvarez with it's 12 frets is that it won't necessarily cater to my playing style since I'm consistently playing all over the neck. But then I convince myself that eventually I'll get used to it and be happy with the tradeoff's.

I've also considered the Taylor GS Mini, Taylor Academy 12, and a few other Concert sized short scale guitars. At this point I'm in analysis paralysis. The guitar center near me doesn't have a ton of smaller bodied guitars, so I've been raiding the forums to see what I might be interested in which has only led me to be a bit more confused on what I actually want and what would work best for my playing style. Looking for some much appreciated opinions and thoughts here 🙂

Lingering questions: Do I really need those extra two frets anyway? I'm not primarily a finger style guitar player - so is a 12 fret really for me? How short a scale length is too short? Is there a sweet spot - perhaps 24.9"? Being 6'1, would I feel better on an OM guitar? Would an OM short scale be the best of both worlds and more conducive to my playing style?

fpuhan · #2 10-09-2022, 07:01 AM

I'm very much like you. For me, the number of frets depends mainly on what songs I wish to play. For example, I have a 12-fret Taylor 652ce 12-string that is absolutely marvelous! But I rarely play anything above the fifth fret on it.

On the other hand, my current daily players are a GS Mini, a Furch Little Jane, and a Martin DJr-10E, all of which are 14 fretters, and I'm often playing up past the 12th fret to get those higher chords and notes.

I get it about being a Strat player. I went through a long phase of electrics with 22 and 24 fret necks, but truthfully found that most of my playing doesn't go up that high.

This probably isn't very helpful, but to me, the smaller size of the three guitars I mentioned above, with their 14 fret-to-the-neck short scale seem to work best for me.

Finally, as a comparison, my Furch Little Jane compares almost exactly in size to my 12-fret Gretsch G9500 "Jim Dandy" but with 14 frets. Sometimes I feel "cramped" when playing the Gretsch.

sevenpalms · #3 10-09-2022, 07:24 AM

I was on the fence for a long time…but now I looove a 12 fret! In fact I have 2 slope shoulder 12 fret dreads…. IMHO They are so much easier to play and more ergonomic. I only play that far up the neck occasionally but find that I can change the way I play songs to get around it. Although my Martin Simpson is a cutaway so no issues with that one. And, I still have my Taylor Dan Crary if I feel the need to play up the neck. Best of luck on your search.

bizango1 · #4 10-09-2022, 07:38 AM

If you are currently "consistently playing all over the neck" then you might feel limited by a 12 fret guitar. I had a couple nice 12 fret 00s but did feel limited because when I pick up my guitar I want to play whatever comes to mind and don't want to run out of fretboard. 12 fretters can have a special sound but mine are gone and replaced by a Martin 00-18V and a 00-DB Tweedy-both 14 fret and easy to play on the couch and no 12 fret limit. I don't miss the 12 fret tone. I don't play a lot past the 12th fret but if I'm settled in on the couch I prob don't wanna get up to swap for a 14 fret when I want to play a 14 fret song. It's an individual choice depending on preferences.

J Patrick · #5 10-09-2022, 07:53 AM

…if you play above the 12th fret a lot it’s an issue….especially if you chord up there….for single note playing you may have to find some other places to find your notes on strings 2 through 6 and of course there will be no other place to find the 2 notes you you don’t have access to on the the 1st string….I don’t find it to be much of an issue and I do play up the neck quite a bit….it’s not hard to reach a couple of frets past the twelfth fret and I really don’t find much juice past there anyway….but it’s all about you’re personal style and none of us can say how it will work for you….

TBman · #6 10-09-2022, 08:08 AM

I have the AP66SB and when I did play it I liked the tone. I didn't feel comfortable with the smaller body though. The OP might feel cramped with just 12 frets so maybe a cutaway version is available?

ljguitar · #7 10-09-2022, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWIED

…Lingering questions: Do I really need those extra two frets anyway? I'm not primarily a finger style guitar player - so is a 12 fret really for me? How short a scale length is too short? Is there a sweet spot - perhaps 24.9"? Being 6'1, would I feel better on an OM guitar? Would an OM short scale be the best of both worlds and more conducive to my playing style?

Hi SWIED
I understand your concerns.

I own one 12 fret neck guitar, and I do have to revise my arrangements when playing with my gigging partner. I'm often adding two note inversions, or little lead runs up around the 17th fret (strings 1-2-3).

The 12 fret just doesn't let me get up there…at least not with two notes at a time. I can reach around and hit solo notes - but I wouldn't be doing that on the couch you mentioned any way.

I think it sounds like you need a road trip to a well stocked guitar/music store for a couple hours just to play a bunch of guitars of different sizes. Only then will your questions be properly answered.

jpmist · #8 10-09-2022, 08:34 AM

I suppose my concern with the Alvarez with it's 12 frets is that it won't necessarily cater to my playing style since I'm consistently playing all over the neck. But then I convince myself that eventually I'll get used to it and be happy with the tradeoff's.

I looked that model up and it's the same as the many Larrivee OO's I have owned and still have. I'm 6' with fairly long fingers and that size is nicely playable on the couch for me.

So the frequent question of "will I miss those 2 frets" never fails to mystify me cause I never have. I play with a capo often on 5 but my technique still doesn't demand I go further than 4, 5 frets higher than the capo. AND even if I did, the thin tone of those notes where the neck connects to the bridge are frankly, not worth the trouble.

Sorry, but I'm going to add to your "analysis paralysis" in suggesting you buy from a big box store with a generous return policy as that seems to be your issue - "what if I don't like the size"? GC has at least 6 used Alvarez OO's with 12 and 14 frets and a generous return policy.

Another is a caution I learned the hard way. I bought and sold 3 all hog guitars and they simply never caught on because I'd been playing spruce tops for decades prior and simply missed the resonance and tone they offer over a hog-top.

Lastly, here's Mayer playing a Martin OO 12 fret on one of his acoustic era tunes. He didn't seem to miss those two frets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjXLyee6mD8

Good luck with your search!

jaymarsch · #9 10-09-2022, 08:54 AM

I have owned several Alvarez guitars over the years and play an MAP66SHB. I love the tone. I have small hands and capo up as far as the 5th fret. With the 24” scale it can feel a little cramped as you go higher but it hasn’t been too problematic. One thing about the guitar that is harder for me to adjust to is the 2 and 1/8 string spacing at the saddle. If you’re a strummer or mostly play with a pick it’s a non issue but if you play finger style then it takes some getting used to. Good luck in finding the right 12 fret for you.
Best,
Jayne

buddyhu · #10 10-09-2022, 09:04 AM

I had a Martin Backpacker guitar for a while, which had a 24” scale. The strings felt very floppy and loose to me (but since you have played a lot of electric guitar with (I presume) light string gauges, maybe that won’t bother you. I really like a 24.9 scale, and a capo at the second fret of a 24.9 can be such an easy experience in regards to reaches. A lot of fun, without having strings that feel like spaghetti.

I don’t play much above the 12th fret. But if I play something that has some fingerings up the neck and I capo even at the 2nd fret, it can feel crowded, even if it isn’t. And if you ever capo pretty high (say at the 7th to play “Here Comes the Sun”, same thing: it feels crowded even though it isn’t unworkable (though certain neck carves might make it more problematic).

While there is a lot to like about a 12 fret, after just a year I sold the only one I have ever owned.

Maybe you could buy the guitar you feel drawn to and get a 72 trial period? Yes, you’d probably have to pay some shipping if you return it. But it might be the best way out of your paralysis.

mrjop1975 · #11 10-09-2022, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

I have owned several Alvarez guitars over the years and play an MAP66SHB. I love the tone. I have small hands and capo up as far as the 5th fret. With the 24” scale it can feel a little cramped as you go higher but it hasn’t been too problematic. One thing about the guitar that is harder for me to adjust to is the 2 and 1/8 string spacing at the saddle. If you’re a strummer or mostly play with a pick it’s a non issue but if you play finger style then it takes some getting used to. Good luck in finding the right 12 fret for you.
Best,
Jayne

I had one of these a few years ago, and while it had a great tone, it honestly just did not work out for me or my needs. What *I* ultimately got towards the end of this week is more than double the price of the Alvarez, is a special run Martin 00 12 fret in all walnut that Martin did for Manchester Music Mill. I did not find the spacing cramped even up the neck, so there is that to factor in. Here is a link to it so you can at least read about it to ponder https://manchestermusicmill.com/mart...-satin-w-case/

lt20dbl · #12 10-09-2022, 10:07 AM

People tend to like what they have. Four out of five of my guitars are 12 frets but the reason is not for the number of frets. It is for the wide string spacing for my big fingers.

RP · #13 10-09-2022, 11:07 AM

I'll just say that my Martin 000-15SM 12-fret is the easiest and most fun to play acoustic I've ever owned, and that covers a whole lot of territory. I say that as someone who plays a lot of finger style using cowboy chords....

Osage · #14 10-09-2022, 11:17 AM

At this point all of my flat tops are 12 fret with the exception of one, which is 13. I find them more comfortable to play and prefer the sound. I'm completely used to it and I don't miss the extra frets but I guess when I first got into 12 fretters, I had to change a few things.

SWIED · #15 10-09-2022, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpuhan

I'm very much like you. For me, the number of frets depends mainly on what songs I wish to play. For example, I have a 12-fret Taylor 652ce 12-string that is absolutely marvelous! But I rarely play anything above the fifth fret on it.

On the other hand, my current daily players are a GS Mini, a Furch Little Jane, and a Martin DJr-10E, all of which are 14 fretters, and I'm often playing up past the 12th fret to get those higher chords and notes.

I get it about being a Strat player. I went through a long phase of electrics with 22 and 24 fret necks, but truthfully found that most of my playing doesn't go up that high.

This probably isn't very helpful, but to me, the smaller size of the three guitars I mentioned above, with their 14 fret-to-the-neck short scale seem to work best for me.

Finally, as a comparison, my Furch Little Jane compares almost exactly in size to my 12-fret Gretsch G9500 "Jim Dandy" but with 14 frets. Sometimes I feel "cramped" when playing the Gretsch.

Interesting. Thank you for your input! I also owned a Jim Dandy briefly but parted ways with it as I didn't like the sound. I did feel a bit cramped, but maybe that's because I didn't give it enough time. I sometimes think maybe less frets will cause me to be more creative?