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Old 03-28-2017, 06:51 PM
Zeo828 Zeo828 is offline
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Default Martin's with no Adjustable Truss Rod's

Hi

So for the Martin's made before 1985 that do not have adjustable tuss rods.... what does that mean for the player?

The action can be lowered with the saddle right? Ok fine.

One thing I know is that guitars can get out of whack due to temperature changes etc.... all my guitars need a setup eventually.

So why if one of these Martins gets a bad buzz at the high e string, 15th fret for example. How would a guitar technician fix that? I always assumed that they would use the adjustable truss rod of the guitar?

I want to buy an older Martin, but I feel that it will cost extra money to service because the guitar tech would have to use other (expensive) means to adjust the guitar.

Forgive my ignorance... I am just curious. Thanks.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:20 PM
stormin1155 stormin1155 is offline
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The purpose of an adjustable truss rod is not so much to set the action as to ser the relief. I've had limited success straightening a neck with too much bow by by heating and clamping. At some point those old Martins are going to need a neck reset, and that would be a good time to install an adjustable truss rod.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:35 PM
jzach46 jzach46 is offline
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As pointed out, the only purpose of an adjustable truss rod is to adjust relief in the neck. A buzz at the 15th fret would require a neck reset or refretting no matter what type of neck reinforcement. I believe most experienced repairpersons will tell you the fixed reinforcement used in earlier Martins is more stable than adjustable truss rods.

Jon Z.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:49 PM
ManyMartinMan ManyMartinMan is offline
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It's not just vintage Martins that don't have a truss rod. At least the new Authentics don't as well. So you could also get a new Martin and not need a neck reset soon.
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:03 PM
kydave kydave is offline
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A well respected luthier who has probably worked on more vintage Martins that most of us will see in our lives has said that the relief issues he has had to work on with Martins having the T-bar reinforce (non-adjustable) neck are less than a handful.

When I was learning about acoustic guitars from a slightly older group of professional bluegrass/old timey style musicians in Kentucky, back in the '60s, one grizzled vet of that music scene told me (when I asked why Gibsons & Guilds had the little plastic thingies on the headstock and Martin didn't), "Son, Gibsons & Guilds have an adjustment rod underneath that thingie. Martins don't adjust, because they build them to stay correctly stiff & you don't need to adjust them."

There are many of us who feel that the inherent rigidity in the T-bar Martin neck has a positive impact on the sound. I felt no qualms about buying my Authentic.

My '71 D-28 (bought new) has never had any relief issues after 46 years...

P.S. re: "So why if one of these Martins gets a bad buzz at the high e string, 15th fret for example. How would a guitar technician fix that? I always assumed that they would use the adjustable truss rod of the guitar?"

The truss rod adjustment would do absolutely nothing at the 15th fret, BTW.

Last edited by kydave; 03-28-2017 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:09 PM
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Many guitar owners, and many technicians for that matter, like to adjust truss rods simply because they are adjustable. Quite often they are treating a symptom rather than the cause. I have many guitars, new and old, with nonadjustable neck reinforcement. None of them, I repeat none of them, move more than 0.002" relief from the dead of winter to the humid summer festival season. If the relief isn't moving, then adjusting the truss rod to correct some buzz or other issue is simply backward thinking.

So, if you want a guitar with nonadjustable neck, get one. Once the relief is correct, it will likely stay that way. If it has to be adjusted, there are several ways to do it, compression fretting being a very common one. The old "heating and pressing" the neck typically means the repairman simply doesn't know how it should really be fixed.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:42 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzach46 View Post
As pointed out, the only purpose of an adjustable truss rod is to adjust relief in the neck. A buzz at the 15th fret would require a neck reset or refretting no matter what type of neck reinforcement. I believe most experienced repairpersons will tell you the fixed reinforcement used in earlier Martins is more stable than adjustable truss rods.

Jon Z.
I'm no luthier but my 1972 D-35 had a neck reset/refret last year and I've never thought it required any truss rod adjustments while my other acoustics have needed relief adjustments a couple times (each) in that same period.

When I compare it to my buddy's 2010 D-35 I feel like much more care was given in finishing my guitar compared to his. Perhaps it's just the lacquer, which I'm sure had a different formulation 45 years ago, but to me, mine just seems "richer" feeling. I dunno.
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:37 PM
Mr Fingers Mr Fingers is offline
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My only non-trussed guitar is a Gibson/Ward's which doesn't even have a T bar because it's a budget instrument. To this day -- 80 years -- and after two refrets (man, the thing got played!) it has needed only minimal fretboard work, which consisted of about 5" of sanding work to true things up the last time it got a refret. This stability is the result of good neck wood -- just great old mahogany -- good fingerboard wood (Brazilian), and what would today be called a somewhat overbuilt (hefty) neck. I agree with those who say that trussrods have become essential because they are now integral to the way modern necks get built and maintained. Whippier necks made out of current wood stocks, with a big rout down the middle, and capable of providing near-electric action for players who want that are going to require adjustability. And when it comes to warranty work, trussrods help avoid labor-intensive procedures. My only current "bought new" guitar is a '96 Collings, and in 20 years I have touched the truss rod once -- essentially unnecessarily. Great wood, great build, great initial setup -- no real need to adjust. I would never add a truss rod to an older guitar built without one. If the neck had weakened or been damaged, I'd consider inlaying ebony or, likely, graphite.
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Old 03-29-2017, 05:41 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is online now
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Default trust rods

My experience has been two-fold. My '78 M38, bought new, was on it's 3rd neck reset when I sold it in 2005. My '67 D12-20 had never been touched to my knowledge when I sold it in 2011. I bought it around 1990. When I bought the M38 everyone kept saying that "Martins are so good they don't need truss rods" but some while after I bought it and they starting using them, the conventional wisdom was that, yes, they did need them after all.
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Old 03-29-2017, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeo828 View Post
Hi

So for the Martin's made before 1985 that do not have adjustable tuss rods.... what does that mean for the player?
Hi Zeo

I have a friend with a 1971 D-28, and his action was abysmally poor. It needed to be re-fretted, so the luthier used compression frets in the first 5-6 frets to straighten the neck relief back to the level required for close action, and the action was set to play very easily.

Then winter set in…

Our humidity levels going into/out-of winter change neck relief enough that we have to tweak the truss rod to keep our strings from buzzing (or needing vice-grip pliers to play barre chords). Since his guitar's neck relief cannot be adjusted, he keeps a winter saddle and a summer saddle in the case and swaps them.

I know some people argue changing the truss rod is not the proper way to change action, but summer--->winter changes on a guitar which has been properly setup primarily involve the neck relief changing some.

Both answers (changing relief or changing saddles) are partial technical solutions, but both work. For the guys who cannot change neck relief (including the classical community) changing saddles is the reasonable solution. For folks who can change the neck relief…that's what most opt for.

The rest just complain that the action's off…











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Old 03-29-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
My experience has been two-fold. My '78 M38, bought new, was on it's 3rd neck reset when I sold it in 2005.
I believe you're aware of this, but for the benefit of the OP, the type of neck reinforcement has zero impact on whether a neck reset is needed. Neck reinforcement controls relief, roughly between the first fret and the body joint, while a neck reset changes the angle at which the neck is joined to the body. Both are important, but one has nothing to do with the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
When I bought the M38 everyone kept saying that "Martins are so good they don't need truss rods" but some while after I bought it and they starting using them, the conventional wisdom was that, yes, they did need them after all.
They really didn't need them until the Low Profile neck came along, which was too shallow for conventional fixed reinforcement. It was only then that Martin introduced adjustable truss rods on their acoustics.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:54 AM
fishstick_kitty fishstick_kitty is offline
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I have a '71 000-18...it has a T-bar. It has had 1 neck reset, but it is very stable. They used more wood on the necks too...this isn't a skinny neck. I think that helps.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:07 AM
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I'll tell you my tale of woe, but I have not read any others - so I don't know if it's cautionary or just the exception to the rule.

My D-28 Authentic had fret buzz when it arrived and I took it anyway, thinking my truly great luthier (Steve Kovacik) would take care of it when he was installing the K&K. My bad.

I just got it back after just under 6 months in the Martin repair department: neck planed flat, re-fret and set-up. I was, of course, under warranty - but it was also a long time.

The guitar sounds amazing, but it's something to think about.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstick_kitty View Post
I have a '71 000-18...it has a T-bar. It has had 1 neck reset, but it is very stable. They used more wood on the necks too...this isn't a skinny neck. I think that helps.
That would have a 3/8" square tube rather than T-bar, but the concept is the same. They switched to the square tube in '67 when their supply of T-bar dried up. My experience has been that these square tube necks are more likely to develop excessive relief, but once corrected they are as stable as any other. The up side is that most are old enough to need some fretwork and compression fretting is part of a fret replacement anyway, so it requires little extra work by a repairman experienced with vintage Martins.

Side note, your 000 is early enough that it might still have a smaller bridge plate. It seems the D's got the large plates first, followed by the smaller guitars. I assume they were using up existing bridge plate stock and figured the D's "needed" the large bridge plates more.

Again though, the reset and neck reinforcement are unrelated.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:14 AM
fishstick_kitty fishstick_kitty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
That would have a 3/8" square tube rather than T-bar, but the concept is the same. They switched to the square tube in '67 when their supply of T-bar dried up. My experience has been that these square tube necks are more likely to develop excessive relief, but once corrected they are as stable as any other. The up side is that most are old enough to need some fretwork and compression fretting is part of a fret replacement anyway, so it requires little extra work by a repairman experienced with vintage Martins.

Side note, your 000 is early enough that it might still have a smaller bridge plate. It seems the D's got the large plates first, followed by the smaller guitars. I assume they were using up existing bridge plate stock and figured the D's "needed" the large bridge plates more.

Again though, the reset and neck reinforcement are unrelated.
Ah thanks Todd...in my head I pictured a square tube but my hands typed T-bar . It does have the smaller bridge plate .
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