Do Wood veneers change the tone?

[6L6]

One day I sat in on a workshop put on by Gryphon. The man in charge that day was Bill Collings.

I asked Bill if putting pearl on the borders of an acoustic guitar affects tone. He looked at me and in no uncertain terms said, "EVERYTHING affects tone. EVERYTHING."

Good enough for me.

[Captain Jim]

Thank you, Alistair, for taking the time to settle the discussion. I think sometimes folks get caught up in the minutia, when the real question is: How does the guitar sound and play? (Great, btw) And, in the case of the woody veneers: What look knocks you out? SO MANY gorgeous options!

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by 6L6

One day I sat in on a workshop put on by Gryphon. The man in charge that day was Bill Collings.

I asked Bill if putting pearl on the borders of an acoustic guitar affects tone. He looked at me and in no uncertain terms said, "EVERYTHING affects tone. EVERYTHING."

Good enough for me.

Although border inlay is a very minor concern compared to changing the soundboard material when considering tone, Bill's comment is of course spot on, and to suggest otherwise would be foolish at best. I've discussing this with many builders, and it's what we call a no brainer.

[Kerbie]

I've also heard Bill say that many times and I believe him... there's nobody I trust more to build me a great guitar. But it seems to me, the practical question is whether or not the sound difference is actually discernible to any of us.

I absolutely think the difference between the CA gloss and raw finishes is large, but it appears this process is quite different from that used by Emerald.

In addition, to assert that tone is different is not saying that one tone is worse. "Different" doesn't have to be a value-laden descriptor. I imagine that ultimately, it is a matter of personal preference. Interesting discussion...

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Alistair, thanks for confirming my comments on this.

Jon, what exactly do you need from Chris that hasn't been answered? It has been explained by Martins wood buyer, as well as a number of Martin enthusiasts, Martin uses Genuine Mahogany for the necks, but reserves the right to substitute other woods like Spanish Cedar at their discretion. BTW, Spanish Cedar is what was used on all those vintage guitars selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars, so good stuff.

I, for one, am highly offended by the talk of wood guitars/necks on this sub-forum!!

Hahahahahahahahahaha! Yeah, I'm kidding. I'm not some little snowflake who gets offended by opinions. I sometimes chuckle about the "cork-sniffing" (wood-sniffing) discussions on the main forum. I suppose someone will take offense if I propose we call ourselves "epoxy-sniffers."

I admit: I get excited when I come across a guitar that brings something special to the experience. Traditional wood guitar manufacturers move or change braces and it is exalted as something major. Taylor puts in a robot that allows for a finish consistency not available by hand spraying, and the discussion would have you believe they throw a chunk of raw wood in a machine and a guitar pops out the other end.

Buying the X7 opened my eyes to how comfortable a guitar can be. Getting the X20 upped the ante exponentially... beautiful tone and great comfort, with a striking look and design. And that beautiful bit of wood (that you can't sniff); all crafted together.

And, for as much as I write about it here, I spend even more time playing it.

In the words of the philosopher Hokey Pokey: that's what it's all about!

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Hi Kerbie,

The question was, "Do Wood veneers change the tone?" and the only logical answer to that question is yes.

But to get back to the original question, I have discussed guitar building with quite a few builders, including Richard Hoover, Bob Taylor, Andy Powers, Tom Bedell, Sam Radding, Ren Ferguson, Rick turner, Joe Luttwak, Ashvin Coomar and dozens more over the years, and all of them agree that indeed, everything single thing will affect the tone to some degree. And while not all players, or builders for that matter, can detect some of the more subtle tonal differences, they are there, and they can be quite important for those who can.

With regards to building guitars using carbon fiber, I'm told that the amount of resin used will play a huge part, not only in the tonal characteristics of the guitars, but the stability of the final product. Using more resin will definitely mask the tone of the material being used, but resin doesn't sound all that good, and it's not very stable. In fact, we can impregnate just about any porous material with resin, and mold it in to a guitar, but the results will be nothing more than an overprices toy guitar that will eventually warp under string tension.


And BTW, while I appreciate Alistair chiming in, I am a bit confused by this part of his statement:

Originally Posted by Alistair Hay

Now on the question of tone, yes there are some differences but they are subtle. If I were to do a blind test of 10 of my guitars I could hear subtle differences from one to the other, but If you asked me to choose which were carbon and which had a veneer I fear I would not be able to accurately make that call.
In general on a direct side by side test I would probably say that the woody is a bit warmer brought about by a reduction in some mid frequencies.

So in a blind test, he can hear the tonal differences from one of his guitars to another, but he would not be able to pick out the wood topped guitars. Yet he can describe the tonal characteristics of those that are fitted with a veneer.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Hi Kerbie,

The question was, "Do Wood veneers change the tone?" and the only logical answer to that question is yes. But to get back to the original question, I have discussed guitar building with quite a few builders, including Richard Hoover, Bob Taylor, Andy Powers, Tom Bedell, Sam Radding, Ren Ferguson, Rick turner, Joe Luttwak, Ashvin Coomar and dozens more over the years, and all of them agree that indeed, everything single thing will affect the tone to some degree. And while not all players, or builders for that matter, can detect some of the more subtle tonal differences, they are there, and they can be quite important for those who can.

With regards to building guitars using carbon fiber, I'm told that the amount of resin used will play a huge part, not only in the tonal characteristics of the guitars, but the stability of the final product. Using more resin will definitely mask the tone of the material being used, but resin doesn't sound all that good, and it's not very stable. In fact, we can impregnate just about any porous material with resin, and mold it in to a guitar, but the results will be nothing more than an overprices toy guitar that will eventually warp under string tension.


And BTW, while I appreciate Alistair chiming in, I am a bit confused by this part of his statement:



So he is saying that in a blind test, he can hear the inconsistencies/tonal differences from one of his guitars to another, but he would not be able to pick out the wood topped guitars. Yet he can describe the tonal characteristics of those that are fitted with a veneer.

[Alistair Hay]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Hi Kerbie,



So he is saying that in a blind test, he can hear the inconsistencies/tonal differences from one of his guitars to another, but he would not be able to pick out the wood topped guitars. Yet he can describe the tonal characteristics of those that are fitted with a veneer.

Ted Im not sure if you realise but adding a smiley face after an insult doesn't make it ok.

[mot]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

So he is saying that in a blind test, he can hear the inconsistencies/tonal differences from one of his guitars to another, but he would not be able to pick out the wood topped guitars. Yet he can describe the tonal characteristics of those that are fitted with a veneer.

I believe this is more common than many realize and in this instance is an aspect of or at least related to the McGurk Effect. Crazy things can happen in a brain and this is just another example.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Alistair Hay

Ted Im not sure if you realise but adding a smiley face after an insult doesn't make it ok.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by mot

I believe this is more common than many realize and in this instance is an aspect of or at least related to the McGurk Effect. Crazy things can happen in a brain and this is just another example.

Kidding aside, I have no doubt this can happen. In fact, I always found 40 series pearl made my Martins sound better. Course the higher grade wood sets and better attention to detail might have something to do with the tone as well.

[JimCA]

Originally Posted by mot

I believe this is more common than many realize and in this instance is an aspect of or at least related to the McGurk Effect. Crazy things can happen in a brain and this is just another example.

Wow! Very convincing video.

Thanks for that Tom.

Jim

[mot]

Originally Posted by JimCA

Wow! Very convincing video.

Thanks for that Tom.

Jim

You are welcome.

There's a lot more if you want to start digging into it. I could probably list 30 examples off the top of my head some less and some more startling than this, but staying somewhat on topic I believe this effect applies to music because we listen with more than just our ears usually. To put it another way, form follows function and this is something where various people, objects and organizations from Apple to X20s have captured the aesthetics well in complementing and enhancing various aspects of their function.

Steve Jobs isn't reading my posts anymore for some reason, but Alistair still is so I want to throw out a hearty thank you for talking me into an X20.

[Long Jon]

Yes, I think sight definitely plays an important part in musical appreciation.


Take Beyoncé's music for example , I could probably even enjoy her work on a video with the sound off...

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Alistair Hay

Ted Im not sure if you realise but adding a smiley face after an insult doesn't make it ok.

Truly didn't mean to insult you, Alistair, just having some fun.

Originally Posted by Long Jon

Yes, I think sight definitely plays an important part in musical appreciation.


Take Beyoncé's music for example , I could probably even enjoy her work on a video with the sound off...

Jon, you are killing me. Now I'm starting to second guess my taste in music.