Microphone Suggestions for Fingerstyle Guitar Documentary?

[Brogat]

I'm part of the team that will be shooting a short documentary on the history/movement of fingerstyle guitar.

As part of the documentary, we will be recording a few acoustic instrumental performances and in the process of narrowing down the perfect mic(s) for our project.

I was hoping to get some advice/recommendations.

A few stipulations:
- Though we are funded from a Kickstarter, we are on a shoestring budget. probably ~$500-$700 to spend on a new or used mic.
- The mic needs to be able to travel and have a bit of ruggedness to it (without a ton of extra weight).
- It has to have a quality bar that would match something for broadcast/documentary format.

Also, we will be recording the mics through an H6N.

Interested in hearing your thoughts and suggestions - thanks!

[runamuck]

You'll need to record in stereo. That's important.
There are plenty of choices and one would be 2
ADK A6 cardioids.

[The Colonel]

i swear by my Rode Nt4. Here is a small clip rercorded with Nt4 stereo mic (in my basement) into an Apogee Duet into Garageband. https://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/open-g-noodle

[Mobilemike]

I'll agree with runamuck that stereo is important. Also, you will want to get something that has a low noise floor and a fairly high output level, as the Zoom H6 is not the quietest recorder out there, so the lower you can keep the preamp levels on the H6 the lower your overall noise floor will be. This is important for fingerstyle as it can be pretty quiet music.

I would recommend getting a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics. If you have a little bit of time, the Line Audio CM3 is awesome. It is small and rugged and sounds great, and is cheap to boot. I have 4 of them and use them for everything for main pair pickup for classical concerts, to recording guitar, to recording sound FX in the wild. They are handmade in Sweden I believe and there is usually more demand than supply so it may take a little while to get them but they are worth it if you can.
http://www.nohypeaudio.com/lineaudioproducts.htm

If you need it quicker I would recommend the Oktava MK012 set.
http://www.zenproaudio.com/oktava-mk-012-msp4-black
Great mics, and will last a lifetime. You can get them modded down the line too for even better sound but they sound good stock too. The set I linked above has interchangeable cardioid and omni capsules which can be cool depending on your video setup. Usually you will want to use the cardioid capsules to minimize room tone, but you will find that the closer you place them to the guitar, the more proximity effect you get, which makes the recording sound boomy and muddy. With omni capsules, however, you can place the microphones way closer to the guitar and still get a beautiful, natural sound out of them. I do this sometimes in decent rooms for low level sources (like fingerpicked guitar) or if I want a hyper-realistic tone.

Good luck!
-Mike

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Brogat

I'm part of the team that will be shooting a short documentary on the history/movement of fingerstyle guitar.

As part of the documentary, we will be recording a few acoustic instrumental performances and in the process of narrowing down the perfect mic(s) for our project.

...[snip]....

What type of locations/environments will you be recording in? The ambient noise, room characteristics, etc, may have a big impact on the gear and setup that will work best for you.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Brogat

I'm part of the team that will be shooting a short documentary on the history/movement of fingerstyle guitar.

As part of the documentary, we will be recording a few acoustic instrumental performances and in the process of narrowing down the perfect mic(s) for our project.

I was hoping to get some advice/recommendations.

A few stipulations:
- Though we are funded from a Kickstarter, we are on a shoestring budget. probably ~$500-$700 to spend on a new or used mic.
- The mic needs to be able to travel and have a bit of ruggedness to it (without a ton of extra weight).
- It has to have a quality bar that would match something for broadcast/documentary format.

Also, we will be recording the mics through an H6N.

Interested in hearing your thoughts and suggestions - thanks!

Any reason you're not using the H6 mics? I was pretty happy with the audio in this clip and it's straight from the H6XY mic module:



Well when I started looking at my YouTube clips I realized that I have a number of videos with audio from the H6XY module so I gathered them into a playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...B_F3v1nnFucsWk

I'm not a fan of the H6MS module, I hear excessive self noise if the side mic is turned up to any reasonable level, but I think the XY module compares favorably to external mic options I've tried that might be in your price range. And it's a winner in terms of weight, ruggedness, support requirements, and wind protection.

Fran

[Brogat]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Any reason you're not using the H6 mics? I was pretty happy with the audio in this clip and it's straight from the H6XY mic module:



Well when I started looking at my YouTube clips I realized that I have a number of videos with audio from the H6XY module so I gathered them into a playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...B_F3v1nnFucsWk

I'm not a fan of the H6MS module, I hear excessive self noise if the side mic is turned up to any reasonable level, but I think the XY module compares favorably to external mic options I've tried that might be in your price range. And it's a winner in terms of weight, ruggedness, support requirements, and wind protection.

Fran

The audio quality from these videos is astounding. How much mixing went into the final recordings? Thanks!

[srick]

Originally Posted by Brogat

The audio quality from these videos is astounding. How much mixing went into the final recordings? Thanks!

What he said!

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

....[snip]....
I'm not a fan of the H6MS module, I hear excessive self noise if the side mic is turned up to any reasonable level, but I think the XY module compares favorably to external mic options I've tried that might be in your price range. And it's a winner in terms of weight, ruggedness, support requirements, and wind protection.

Fran

I think the Zoom handhelds are great products, and this is a very nice recording. I have a H4 (old design, and I've read how the preamps are much better in the H5 and H6). If you like recording in XY arrangement, the Zooms mics may be just fine. It's probably a pretty safe arrangement, in that you can usually get something pretty good. However, I was never fully satisfied recording solo guitar in XY. It always seemed that I'd rather be micing locations other than what was available and I wanted more flexibility controlling the width of the stereo field. For me, I prefer the sound and flexibility of a spaced pair. I think your original idea of external mics might be more appropriate. That would also allow the mics to be placed where they work best and the recorder can be operated/monitored a bit removed from the player.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Brogat

The audio quality from these videos is astounding. How much mixing went into the final recordings? Thanks!

I'm glad you enjoyed the recordings. I edit these clips in my NLE, Edius, and the only "mixing" on most of them would be a transparent brickwall limiter set at -1 dB to prevent clipping in the video render. The "Aloha Kaua`i" clip sounds like it might have a touch of reverb, but it might just be the untreated room. The duets with Ledward and the "Silver Threads" on the Wingert F were definitely straight out of the recorder.

When you combine the quality with the ease of deploying the recording system I think the H6 (or H5) or some other recent prosumer handheld recorder makes a lot of sense many projects.

I have some H6 comparison recordings posted on the Homebrewed Music blog: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2013/...itar-shootout/ and http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2013/...h6-vs-rme-ufx/

Fran

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I think the Zoom handhelds are great products, and this is a very nice recording. I have a H4 (old design, and I've read how the preamps are much better in the H5 and H6). If you like recording in XY arrangement, the Zooms mics may be just fine. It's probably a pretty safe arrangement, in that you can usually get something pretty good. However, I was never fully satisfied recording solo guitar in XY. It always seemed that I'd rather be micing locations other than what was available and I wanted more flexibility controlling the width of the stereo field. For me, I prefer the sound and flexibility of a spaced pair. I think your original idea of external mics might be more appropriate. That would also allow the mics to be placed where they work best and the recorder can be operated/monitored a bit removed from the player.

Can't argue preference, Chuck, some folks like the solidity of a coincident mic arrangement, some like the more diffuse sound field of spaced recordings.

But when someone says they're shooting a documentary I think of traveling, of moving things around and shooting in different locations. And that makes me think about carrying and setting up multiple mics/cables/stands and adjusting the mic configuration on the fly for different environments while dealing with camera angles and lighting. And all that makes me think I'd rather stick an H6 in front of the talent, get levels, and press the red button.

Also please don't think of the H6 as a slight improvement over the H4, it's actually night and day different and better.

Fran

[alohachris]

Aloha Fran,

That IS such an impressive recording on the H-6, true. But you & Uncle Led really nailed that lovely song with such beautiful & complementary playing - a real treat for guitar & Island lovers. So nahe'-nahe' & just plain, simple, honest & beautiful Kiho'alu - in the old style! I closed my eyes & it really took me back, bruddah. Knocked me out!

I truly loved it as the two guitar parts wound in & out of each others path, like a dance, yet maintaining pace & consistency, & feeling - one of the challenges of two fingerstyle guitarists playing Kiho'alu, IMO. Only you real pro's can pull that off so well. Your arrangement of that piece really worked perfectly, Fran.

Mahalo a nui!

alohachris

[alohachris]

Aloha Brogat,

It's difficult to argue with Fran's shared recording results. Such great music, playing & excellent recording on the Zoom H-6.

However, I've always heard considerable self-noise on the on-board mic's of the smaller recorders such as the Zoom's.

For that reason, I recommend using a matched pair of great condenser mic's like Schoeps CMC641 hypercardioid's or Microtech-Gefell M295's to stereo record the acoustic guitar. If you organize your sessions, you can rent such mic's to minimize costs.

Though it's beyond your purchasing budget, I also recommend that you record your documentary's tracks using a sturdy, reliable & road-worthy, professional-level, portable digital audio recorder like a Sound Devices 702 (or better), or one of the better Roland's or Tascam's?

Check 'em out here:

http://www.sweetwater.com/c1006--Portable_Recorders/pn1

Check out the specs (especially noise levels) on such a machine & then compare it to hand-held recorders like the Zoom's. No comparison. There are other similar high-end recorders available also - but I'm a real fan of Sound Devices portable recorders, Brogat.

I mean, doesn't your acoustic guitar documentary deserve the best & most reliable signal chain that's available? Re-takes later could be a problem for a documentarian. And it would be disappointing if noise was an issue you couldn't fix in post.

Of course you can rent all of that equipment for your project as well. You don't have to buy it.

Additionally, if none of that is feasible, a pair of ADK A6's or Oktava MK-012's would provide adequate mic coverage for stereo recording the acoustic guitar through an H6N & not break the bank. They're the two best under $500 mic's available, IMO.

just a thought, Brogat.

alohachris

[DupleMeter]

I've always found the Audio-Technica 4041s to be an unbelievable deal. They are rugged, have relatively high output and sound great on guitars. I've swapped out Neumanns and DPAs for AT4041s and have had people say "woah - that sounds awesome".

They have been my secret weapon for guitar recording for years now.

And you can get a pair for under 600.