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  #1  
Old 05-14-2022, 02:34 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Default Fender ToneMaster Deluxe Reverb DI

I subscribe to too many guitar newsletters. The latest Guitar World "The Pick" had several articles on digital amplification including a picture of Mike McCready of Pearl Jam using a mic'd ToneMaster Deluxe Reverb live. Why the microphone when his and my TMDR amp have two built-in IR cabinet emulation settings: Shure SM57 and Royer 121?

I plugged my TMDR into my QSC CP8. The CP8 was sitting on the floor with it's default EQ setting. Nothing sounded as good as the TMDR through its Jensen speaker. In decreasing goodness:

TMDR Jensen > Mustang Micro DR amp w/spring reverb CP8 > TMDR DI Royer CP8 > TMDR DI SM57 CP 8 > TMDR DI no IR CP8

Mostly what I felt I was losing was that Fender sparkle. Even the spring reverb sounded less good as you descend the above list. Possibly putting the CP8 up on a stand or using its floor monitor EQ setting would be better. I made no attempt to tweak the tone control settings on the TMDR (bass 5, treble 7, firmware that retains the bright cap) or Mustang Micro (tone on middle "white" setting).
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  #2  
Old 05-15-2022, 09:41 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I subscribe to too many guitar newsletters. The latest Guitar World "The Pick" had several articles on digital amplification including a picture of Mike McCready of Pearl Jam using a mic'd ToneMaster Deluxe Reverb live. Why the microphone when his and my TMDR amp have two built-in IR cabinet emulation settings: Shure SM57 and Royer 121?

I plugged my TMDR into my QSC CP8. The CP8 was sitting on the floor with it's default EQ setting. Nothing sounded as good as the TMDR through its Jensen speaker. In decreasing goodness:

TMDR Jensen > Mustang Micro DR amp w/spring reverb CP8 > TMDR DI Royer CP8 > TMDR DI SM57 CP 8 > TMDR DI no IR CP8

Mostly what I felt I was losing was that Fender sparkle. Even the spring reverb sounded less good as you descend the above list. Possibly putting the CP8 up on a stand or using its floor monitor EQ setting would be better. I made no attempt to tweak the tone control settings on the TMDR (bass 5, treble 7, firmware that retains the bright cap) or Mustang Micro (tone on middle "white" setting).
If I understand what you did, you're likely testing and hearing the QSC's electronics and speakers as much or (likely) more than the DI's qualities.

If I had your curiosity about this I'd consider using a SM57 mic and a recording interface. Those are "things I have around the house" for me.* I'd find a nice sounding position for the SM57** and record a passage of your style of playing. Next I'd do the same with the DI on it's SM57 emulation setting, taking care to match the recording levels. Listening to the two recordings would give you some more isolated/focused comparison of the two approaches.

For me the joy of amp DI out is that there's no leakage into the guitar track. when recording, and in the Tonemaster series I think it also allows silent playing or recording.

*Not every house I'm sure, but those'd be tools to answer your question, and they have a lot of other uses.

**Doing this will also demonstrate how much mic position (even with the same mic and amp/speaker) changes things. Even if the DI mic emulation was perfect and undetectable to any measurement or golden ear, it could only be so for one mic position. The cool way to do this for one person who wants to locate a mic sweet spot for their tastes, equipment, and playing is to use a looper pedal or function to set a repeating passage going and then to wear a set of closed headphones connected to the recording interface as you move the mic around.

If the above mic positioning sounds like too much trouble, then you've uncovered another reason why DI outs are a marketable feature.
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Old 05-15-2022, 10:30 AM
Tahitijack Tahitijack is offline
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I'm wondering about the future of technology in mass market amps. Will it be possible to dial up the exact tone settings of a song by voice command? Alexa change my settings to play rhythm guitar parts for Take It Easy by the Eagles.
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Old 05-15-2022, 02:20 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
If I understand what you did, you're likely testing and hearing the QSC's electronics and speakers as much or (likely) more than the DI's qualities.
I rarely record, but play live at least monthly. I was trying to see if given the Pearl Jam example I too would be motivated to use a mic to the house, rather than the TMDR DI.

BTW, I played a farmers market gig this morning using my Mustang Micro into that same CP8, however this time on a pole and thought it sounded pretty good.

I think the thing that surprised me most was the Mustang Micro into that CP8 sounded better than the TMDR DI into that CP8. Still not a replacement for the TMDR's internal speaker.

I'm not making any major conclusions since there is so much more I could do with the TMDR DI and CP8 in this experiment. At the very least that guy in Pearl Jam with a mic on his TMDR no longer seems crazy to me.
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.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 60/40, 50/50, 40/60, and 25/75 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
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  #5  
Old 05-15-2022, 08:43 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I rarely record, but play live at least monthly. I was trying to see if given the Pearl Jam example I too would be motivated to use a mic to the house, rather than the TMDR DI.

BTW, I played a farmers market gig this morning using my Mustang Micro into that same CP8, however this time on a pole and thought it sounded pretty good.

I think the thing that surprised me most was the Mustang Micro into that CP8 sounded better than the TMDR DI into that CP8. Still not a replacement for the TMDR's internal speaker.

I'm not making any major conclusions since there is so much more I could do with the TMDR DI and CP8 in this experiment. At the very least that guy in Pearl Jam with a mic on his TMDR no longer seems crazy to me.
If it sounds good, it is good, as the saying goes.

To be clear on my point of using a recording interface comparing the amp out DI to power PA speaker vs amp combo speaker to mic to power PA speaker was to see what inherent differences were in just the DI output and it's mic emulation vs. "the real thing." In this case, the recording interface would be acting as a research tool.
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Guitars: 20th Century Seagull S6-12, S6 Folk, Seagull M6; '00 Guild JF30-12, '01 Martin 00-15, '16 Martin 000-17, '07 Parkwood PW510, Epiphone Biscuit resonator, Merlin Dulcimer, and various electric guitars, basses....
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  #6  
Old 06-12-2022, 01:09 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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As I posted in another thread I got the DI from the TMDR to sound excellent into the CP8 at home.

Ultimately it was the SM57 IR, CP8 floor monitor EQ setting, and placing the CP8 in the wedge position. It is surprising how important it was (to me anyway) to get all three at the same time.
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jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 60/40, 50/50, 40/60, and 25/75 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
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