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  #1  
Old 06-21-2022, 12:41 PM
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Default Carbon fiber bridge plate.

A buddy of mine recieved a new luthier built guitar recently and asked me to come over and play it. It is beautifully made with beautiful woods.

Upon playing it, it sould big and open and resonant. However, the more I played it, I began hearing something just slightly odd, subtly harsh, and couldn't figure out what it was. Upon looking inside the guitar, I noticed that the builder had used carbon fiber for the bridge plate.

The question: Could I be hearing the carbon fiber bridge plate?

What think you?

Steve
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Old 06-21-2022, 01:34 PM
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Given the part that a bridge plate plays, yes you hear it. If you are asking if that is why the guitar sounds harsh, maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.
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Last edited by Mark Hatcher; 06-21-2022 at 02:32 PM.
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2022, 02:36 PM
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I’m guilty of making rash judgment based on companies making changes for the sake of change.
I don’t know why, but the instant I learned that the Modern Deluxe Martins had a carbon fiber bridge plate I was turned off to the guitars and haven’t given them another thought.
What is the benefit of a carbon fiber bridge plate? reducing weight and vibratory mass?
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Old 06-21-2022, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff View Post
What is the benefit of a carbon fiber bridge plate? reducing weight and vibratory mass?
Lots of positive benefits come to mind: less weight, less mass, crack resistant and extremely wear resistant to string ball damage.
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Old 06-21-2022, 07:43 PM
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Less weight? Not always. My CF is not my lightest guitar. But it is the smallest. Wood is also lightweight - some woods are lighter than CF..
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Old 06-22-2022, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Lots of positive benefits come to mind: less weight, less mass, crack resistant and extremely wear resistant to string ball damage.
I've been making all my guitars with a three-ply laminated bridge plate for twenty years, for the exact reasons Tim cited, and it works very well. The laminations are a .030" slab-sawn rosewood which comprises the gluing surface; a center of rigid carbon fiber weave that is .35 mm thick; and the outside piece is a black fiber veneer that is .010" thick. It's glued up with epoxy in the radius dish so it will conform perfectly with the radius of the top.

The outside layer of fiber veneer is there to prevent blowout when I drill through for the bridge pins, and also to mitigate any metallic feedback or buzz from the carbon fiber. The whole construction is only 5/64" thick, and is super rigid and strong. And I doubt the ball ends of the strings will ever pull through the plate. I think the low mass, light weight, and acoustic properties of the rosewood and carbon fiber make this a bridge plate that is superior in several ways to a typical 1/8" to 3/16" thick maple or rosewood plate. To my way of thinking, that solid, thick piece of wood will somewhat act as a tone-sink. But what do I know...
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Old 07-01-2022, 03:51 AM
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I am not a luthier but i find it hard to believe that the material choice for a bridge plate can have a more perceptible tonal difference than bracing, the quality of the voicing done, the irregularities of the tonewoods used as well as the acoustic idiosyncrasies of how the entire system behaved. Even the subjective tonal preferences of the listener are likely to have a bigger effect. If luthiers canot even build two guitars that sound exactly identical even if they use wood from the same batch of woods, it seems impossible to isolate the effect of using a different material as the bridgeplate... Wouldn't it be more likely that if that guitsr sounded a little strange, it is more likely down to those other factors?
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Old 07-01-2022, 06:39 AM
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With all due respect the BP material and even its thickness can make a significant contribution in tone. As proof, purchase a "Plate Mate" and install it in your guitar and then tell me if you can perceive a tonal change? Not my cup of tea (quote borrowed from JT1) but its a simple experiment that clearly answers the question.
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Old 07-01-2022, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
With all due respect the BP material and even its thickness can make a significant contribution in tone. As proof, purchase a "Plate Mate" and install it in your guitar and then tell me if you can perceive a tonal change? Not my cup of tea (quote borrowed from JT1) but its a simple experiment that clearly answers the question.
Hello Tim

No doubt you luthiers are the experts in this area and you would know best. Howevee wouldnt you think that the platemate though would change things much more than a bridgeplate made of CF would be expected to? After all it is meant to be added adhesively to the bottom of an existing bridgeplate and it is further made of brass and not of CF...
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Old 07-02-2022, 06:42 AM
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A bridge plate and bridge together are perhaps the unsung most important brace in a guitar…
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Old 07-02-2022, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
I am not a luthier but i find it hard to believe that the material choice for a bridge plate can have a more perceptible tonal difference than bracing,
Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
Hello Tim

No doubt you luthiers are the experts in this area and you would know best. Howevee wouldnt you think that the platemate though would change things much more than a bridgeplate made of CF would be expected to? After all it is meant to be added adhesively to the bottom of an existing bridgeplate and it is further made of brass and not of CF...

Hi Gitarro,
I was merely using the PlateMate as an analogy. Yes, the PlateMate is made of brass but when one installs it you can clearly hear a significant change that the brass imparts to the tone and overall timber of the instrument. In similitude Hard Maple, Rosewood, Carbon Fiber, Padauk, Wenge or laminations of the aforementioned bridge plates all lend their unique tonal coloration to tone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
A bridge plate and bridge together are perhaps the unsung most important brace in a guitar…
Bob is spot on with his response! The bridgeplate and bridge design (which includes material, overall size of the foot print, stiffness, thickness, mass and weight) all work together as a very important brace on the top to be considered.
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Old 07-02-2022, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
With all due respect the BP material and even its thickness can make a significant contribution in tone. As proof, purchase a "Plate Mate" and install it in your guitar and then tell me if you can perceive a tonal change? Not my cup of tea (quote borrowed from JT1) but its a simple experiment that clearly answers the question.
Ha!

I confess that bridgeplates and bridges (and pretty much every other component of guitars) mystify me. Many in the vintage guitar community attribute at least a significant portion of the decline of the tone of Martins in the late 1960s until relatively recently to the company's switch from small maple bridgeplates to larger rosewood bridgeplates in 1968 (and the return to goodness when Martin switched back to maple bridgeplates). But I've played many great sounding modern guitars that feature sizeable rosewood bridgeplates.
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Old 07-02-2022, 01:15 PM
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Thanks for bringing up the Martin reference John. I was going to mention it earlier then got sidetracked.

I recall a conversation with TJ many years ago and he had just replaced a bridge plate in a vintage Martin uke and had showed me the original Koa bridge plate. Time had hardened the Koa significantly to the point that the old bridge plate would not indent with a thumbnail no matter how much pressure you could apply. He said he searched high and low to find a suitable Koa replacement and used the densest piece of aged Koa he had. After that he started sunlight aging his bridge plates by setting them in window sills for an extended time. I found it interesting that prolonged exposure to direct sunlight would actually harden the bridge plate wood significantly.
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Old 07-02-2022, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Thanks for bringing up the Martin reference John. I was going to mention it earlier then got sidetracked.

I recall a conversation with TJ many years ago and he had just replaced a bridge plate in a vintage Martin uke and had showed me the original Koa bridge plate. Time had hardened the Koa significantly to the point that the old bridge plate would not indent with a thumbnail no matter how much pressure you could apply. He said he searched high and low to find a suitable Koa replacement and used the densest piece of aged Koa he had. After that he started sunlight aging his bridge plates by setting them in window sills for an extended time. I found it interesting that prolonged exposure to direct sunlight would actually harden the bridge plate wood significantly.
Yeah. Oxidation is real.
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Last edited by jt1; 07-03-2022 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 07-05-2022, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Thanks for bringing up the Martin reference John. I was going to mention it earlier then got sidetracked.

I recall a conversation with TJ many years ago and he had just replaced a bridge plate in a vintage Martin uke and had showed me the original Koa bridge plate. Time had hardened the Koa significantly to the point that the old bridge plate would not indent with a thumbnail no matter how much pressure you could apply. He said he searched high and low to find a suitable Koa replacement and used the densest piece of aged Koa he had. After that he started sunlight aging his bridge plates by setting them in window sills for an extended time. I found it interesting that prolonged exposure to direct sunlight would actually harden the bridge plate wood significantly.
When I learned the lengths to which TJ goes, including but not limited to the aforementioned suntanning of bridge plates, and the buying off eBay of trashed old martins as parts donors, it made me feel a lot better about my own obsessive compulsive tendencies. 😁
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