Further improving my guitar sound

JackB1 · #1 03-11-2019, 07:59 AM

Question....

I currently play my acoustic/vocals through a Fishman SA220 PA and use a TC Helicon Perform VG to enhance the guitar & vocals. The Perform unit has the "Bodyrez" function to improve the guitar sound. Would I benefit further by adding a preamp/DI box before going through the Perform VG unit? Something like an LR Baggs Para? Do either the Fishman or Perform unit have a built in DI? Also, sometimes I just take my Perfrom VG pedal and hook that straight into a house PA. Would a preamp/DI benefit me in those instances.

Let me add I am new to running my own sound so I realize these may be "stupid" questions

But thanks for the help!

JackB1 · #2 03-11-2019, 01:22 PM

Is my question dumb or doesn't anyone know the answer?

shufflebeat · #3 03-11-2019, 01:38 PM

There are no dumb questions - although I have seen some pretty dumb answers and it's your job to separate the wisdom from the word salad - good luck.

It's hard to advise on your situation from a distance. If you were to describe an actual problem then those with similar experience can share, sometimes explain the principles and mechanics of an issue.

Apart from that these kinds of questions normally end up with lists of recommendations of folk's favourite gear which may or may not be appropriate for your needs.

It would be useful in that case if you could identify what is bothering you, otherwise just play and enjoy.

dcopper · #4 03-11-2019, 02:03 PM

If you use the Perform VG direct to the house PA, most likely you do not need a DI. You can pick one up fairly inexpensively though, if you only want to have a simple DI out to the board.
It sounds like you do not need anything when you go straight into your Fishman. Those units are plug and play, although most people add some outboard gear but if you are happy with your VG direct in, why complicate your setup and sound?
One advantage to a DI with EQ would be having the ability to tweak your eq on the fly when you go into the house PA. It may also help you add some flexibility to your Fishman setup but most likely not necessary if you already like your sound.
For going into the PA, there are tons of preamps with eq on the market. Look at all your options and look at your needs - Do I need a low cut filter/boost/tuner out/simple eq like high/mid/low or adjustable and sweepable mids? It can be as simple as a Baggs Para DI or as expensive as a used car.
I use a Headway EDB2 2 channel preamp/DI that has every feature I need, runs on battery and can serve as a mini-mixer for my guitar and vocals (shared eq).
That just works for me.
Davidc

Lost in Sound · #5 03-11-2019, 02:10 PM

Hey Jack,

With the VG, I believe it's all built into the unit so you don't need additional D.I.'s etc. I have the Play Acoustic and solely use that for gigs into the P.A. Of course, if your not happy with your guitar sound, an additional preamp or EQ pedal may help you carve out the tone you want. But with the Fishman and the VG, you should be getting a pretty sweet sound.

All the best,

JackB1 · #6 03-11-2019, 02:52 PM

Nothing is "bothering me" per se. I was just wondering if a unit like the "para acoustic di" would improve my guitar sound? It's not that it sounds terrible at the moment...but better would be...well...better

Quote:

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

There are no dumb questions - although I have seen some pretty dumb answers and it's your job to separate the wisdom from the word salad - good luck.

It's hard to advise on your situation from a distance. If you were to describe an actual problem then those with similar experience can share, sometimes explain the principles and mechanics of an issue.

Apart from that these kinds of questions normally end up with lists of recommendations of folk's favourite gear which may or may not be appropriate for your needs.

It would be useful in that case if you could identify what is bothering you, otherwise just play and enjoy.

gfirob · #7 03-11-2019, 03:53 PM

I have a Play Acoustic, but I zeroed out the Body Rez in favor of a Tonedexter which is far superior sound wise. Not cheap at $400 but a huge improvement in the pickup's sound (K&K mini's).

JackB1 · #8 03-11-2019, 03:57 PM

The Play Acoustic has a DI. Not sure my Perform VG does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfirob

I have a Play Acoustic, but I zeroed out the Body Rez in favor of a Tonedexter which is far superior sound wise. Not cheap at $400 but a huge improvement in the pickup's sound (K&K mini's).

dcopper · #9 03-11-2019, 06:45 PM

I looked at a photo of the unit. If your guitar and vocals are output through the XLR then most likely it is a DI. there is also a "Thru" output for your guitar so you can send a separate signal to an amp or separate the guitar signal.

jseth · #10 03-11-2019, 11:14 PM

Would help if you identified the pickup systems you are using... as you've probably realized, each different "brand" of pickup have far different character to the tone you get.

Knowing what YOU want to achieve with your acoustic guitar sound is HUGE... as with most things, every one has their own good idea of what an acoustic guitar should sound like... problem is, it is very likely that YOUR IDEA is different altogether.

Learning to "play" your pickup system is necessary to having it sound as good as it can... a player's own style and technique can dictate what sort of pickup is gong to work for them. Finding a pickup that allows you to use all the technique you have and translates that well is paramount.

Sounds like your signal chain is fairly complex. One of my basic rules of thumb is, the MORE I have to massage the signal to get good tone, the more I need to look at my equipment's possible shortcomings. You can run every "world-class" pre-amp, pickup and gizmo through a marginal sound system and it's not going to sound very good... it's that "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" thing.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is to take EVERYTHING out of the signal path, and then TRUST YOUR EARS... once you start twiddling knobs and dials, it's easy to get lost in the maze...

So, giving us a bunch of this information would most likely promote more cogent responses, but, in the end, the fact that YOU know the answers to this stuff is far more important!

meb · #11 03-12-2019, 06:16 AM

I have a VE-8 rather than Perform VG, but it should apply here. I do get
better sound from my Preamp/DI's (Venue, sunnaudio, Redeye) than the
VE-8. So I run the VE-8 in the EFX Loop with both guitar/mic to get the
harmony feature. But for guitar, I also run a XLR directly from my DI
to my PA or the House PA. This allows me to use the full EQ of
my preamp/DI of the day. An added bonus is no hidden menus for
the guitar chain.

JackB1 · #12 03-12-2019, 07:44 AM

I have a Fishman Matrix VT Enhanced pickup system in my guitar. No my signal chain is not complex at all. Just into the Perform VG pedal and then into my amp (Fishman SA220). As far as sound, I would just like it to sound as close to the natural unamplified acoustic tone as possible. I am mostly a strummer, if that helps, and I play mostly classic rock (Young, Stones, REM, Allmans, Eagles, etc.) I play solo, so I want a sound that is as "full and lush" sounding as possible....not a thin and twangy sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jseth

Would help if you identified the pickup systems you are using... as you've probably realized, each different "brand" of pickup have far different character to the tone you get.

Knowing what YOU want to achieve with your acoustic guitar sound is HUGE... as with most things, every one has their own good idea of what an acoustic guitar should sound like... problem is, it is very likely that YOUR IDEA is different altogether.

Learning to "play" your pickup system is necessary to having it sound as good as it can... a player's own style and technique can dictate what sort of pickup is gong to work for them. Finding a pickup that allows you to use all the technique you have and translates that well is paramount.

Sounds like your signal chain is fairly complex. One of my basic rules of thumb is, the MORE I have to massage the signal to get good tone, the more I need to look at my equipment's possible shortcomings. You can run every "world-class" pre-amp, pickup and gizmo through a marginal sound system and it's not going to sound very good... it's that "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" thing.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is to take EVERYTHING out of the signal path, and then TRUST YOUR EARS... once you start twiddling knobs and dials, it's easy to get lost in the maze...

So, giving us a bunch of this information would most likely promote more cogent responses, but, in the end, the fact that YOU know the answers to this stuff is far more important!

JackB1 · #13 03-12-2019, 07:46 AM

Yes, I use the combined XLR out to the XLR channel 1 input on my Fishman SA220.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcopper

I looked at a photo of the unit. If your guitar and vocals are output through the XLR then most likely it is a DI. there is also a "Thru" output for your guitar so you can send a separate signal to an amp or separate the guitar signal.

JackB1 · #14 03-12-2019, 07:51 AM

So you are bybassing the VE-8 with your guitar? Doesn't than mean you are only using half of that unit? I though the VE-8 had some good guitar sound improvements built into it?

Question.....couldn't you plug your guitar first into your Preamp/DI and then into the VE-8? Then you could use the guitar effects from the VE-8 as well as the vocal effects?

Quote:

Originally Posted by meb

I have a VE-8 rather than Perform VG, but it should apply here. I do get
better sound from my Preamp/DI's (Venue, sunnaudio, Redeye) than the
VE-8. So I run the VE-8 in the EFX Loop with both guitar/mic to get the
harmony feature. But for guitar, I also run a XLR directly from my DI
to my PA or the House PA. This allows me to use the full EQ of
my preamp/DI of the day. An added bonus is no hidden menus for
the guitar chain.

meb · #15 03-12-2019, 10:08 AM

It gets confusing and I sometimes confuse myself. :-) I use it 3
different ways. For example using the Red-eye Twin preamp/DI

1) VE-8 in effects loop - I have all VE-8 EQ functions + all Venue
functions and use Twin XLR out to mixer.

2) Omit the effects return - Then I have only Twin functions using XLR out
to mixer. as you say, I am using half the VE-8.

3) Twin preamp/DI to VE-8 and 1/4" to mixer. This is probably how
most people use Harmony processors. This sounds fine, but I just
seem to get slightly better results with 1 or 2.

Back to your OP...yes, I think that there is a great chance that a
Preamp/DI in the chain would help. All 3 options above sound better
to me than the VE-8 alone. I have no idea about the Perform VG.
Perhaps some of my findings are different; since I use a passive pickup.

I hope this helps.