Amplification Upgrade Recommendations

[MileHighJC]

Before I start... Bear with me if Im asking stupid questions, but I havent had a lot of luck coming up with the right search terms here or on the web in general for this.

Background: Im still a pretty gross amateur with the Guitar. Bought my first (and SO FAR only) guitar in Sept of '17, a Taylor Academy 10e. I took a few months of private instruction, then had a bit of a medical issue that pushed me out of it for a while. Since getting back to it, it has all been self taught. My practice playlist is currently at 35 songs, about 30 of which I can play ok, the other 5 are stretching me (more barre chords, some finger picking, faster, etc.

Now, I have now found the joy of playing with others... :-)

Shortly after buying the guitar, I bought a Powerwerks PW50 PA, just so I had something to play around with. When I started hosting a "music" night with a buddy, the Powerwerks was awesome. We both were able to plug in, as well as plugging in my iPhone with my spotify playlist, and do at least a rudimentary mix. I also bought a beat buddy mini 2, and a Ditto X2 Looper. Have not done much with them YET, but I can see the promise. Now we have another guy joining us on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and a couple more that MIGHT join sometime. (actively looking for a bass player).

Anyway, I am thinking of making some improvements to the system. The objectives so far are:

• Add some bottom end to the sound. The Powerwerks PW50 sounds "ok", but could use some help with bass.
• Support more players. The PW50 has two Line/MIC inputs, and one mini jack. I would like to have at least 2 more Line/MIC for these jam sessions.
• Keep it relatively portable. I also intend to use this system for tailgates, our annual fourth of July block party, etc
• Would love to have a battery power option (tailgating)

So my thought is MAYBE the Powerwerks PA40BATBT. It can be a stand alone PA (running off battery if I want) with two line in inputs, one of which could also be a MIC. It also has bluetooth. Since the Powerwerks stuff can be daisy chained, that would give me a total of up to 4 line in, or 3 MIC in, and a mini plug, and BT. If I put them on stands, in theory would make a pretty nice block party system.

There is also a sub out (1/4"). So IN THEORY could fill out the bass, at least some.

Questions:

1. Is this a reasonable set up for the uses I mentioned, and maybe even some day a small gig system if I ever get good enough?
2. Should I be concerned at all about one of the cabinets being 50W, and one 40W?
3. Any recommendations for a sub that would be usable for this without blowing the budget completely (I would like < $200 for the sub)
4. Any recommendations for a first MIC set up to go with this rig?
   
5. Does it even make sense to extend the powerwerks investment like this, or am I better off to shift gears now?

[RedJoker]

I can't answer all of your questions but I can provide some input. I'm in the similar boat and am just starting to play solo gigs so I've been thinking more about this. I have a Kustom PA50, the same thing as yours but with a different name. One thing I've already done is pickup a Behringer mixer that will expand my input count, if I ever need it. Plus, it can provide some reverb if I want.

I'm also considering adding a foot bass so I'm also trying to decide if I want to add a subwoofer. Kustom has a sub that is intended to go with the PA50 that my local used music store has for $150. They also have a powered Behringer subwoofer for a bit more money but it also has a little more power.

Another option I'm considering is to sell the PA50 and buy a 12" powered PA speaker. That will provide more power and more bass than a single PA50. Then I wouldn't have to get a subwoofer.

As far as battery power, you could always just get a pure sine wave inverter and run the plug in stuff off a battery. That's what I plan to do when I get to that point. Besides, it might be useful in other, non-music scenarios too.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts.

[MileHighJC]

Originally Posted by RedJoker

I can't answer all of your questions but I can provide some input. I'm in the similar boat and am just starting to play solo gigs so I've been thinking more about this. I have a Kustom PA50, the same thing as yours but with a different name. One thing I've already done is pickup a Behringer mixer that will expand my input count, if I ever need it. Plus, it can provide some reverb if I want.

I'm also considering adding a foot bass so I'm also trying to decide if I want to add a subwoofer. Kustom has a sub that is intended to go with the PA50 that my local used music store has for $150. They also have a powered Behringer subwoofer for a bit more money but it also has a little more power.

Another option I'm considering is to sell the PA50 and buy a 12" powered PA speaker. That will provide more power and more bass than a single PA50. Then I wouldn't have to get a subwoofer.

As far as battery power, you could always just get a pure sine wave inverter and run the plug in stuff off a battery. That's what I plan to do when I get to that point. Besides, it might be useful in other, non-music scenarios too.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts.

If I could get my hands on the sub designed to go with these for $150, I would probably jump at that. But your idea of a 12" powered PA is pretty interesting as well.

As for the battery thing, I have an inverter, but I havent done the math to see how much these things draw. That has the potential to be a pretty decent tailgate solution if it isnt too much.

[YamahaGuy]

I have a Kustom 12" sub and two PW50 tops. I played a church that seats 1000+ and they marveled at the sound from that system. I'd add a small mixer with effects. The sub handles a bass very well. Nice for keyboard too.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by MileHighJC

.
[*]Any recommendations for a sub that would be usable for this without blowing the budget completely (I would like < $200 for the sub)

IMO, you're not going to find any sub that will be anything but underwhelming at that price point. You'll have to get near and preferably over a grand to get a worthwhile sub... especially at outdoor tailgate parties.

I'd suggest a scalable system with a few powered speakers and at least one decent sub. I get that budget can be a concern, but buying an underpowered system is more of a waste of money in the long run.

[MileHighJC]

Originally Posted by YamahaGuy

I have a Kustom 12" sub and two PW50 tops. I played a church that seats 1000+ and they marveled at the sound from that system. I'd add a small mixer with effects. The sub handles a bass very well. Nice for keyboard too.

I picked up a Powerwerks PW112S sub for a good price, Sounds like that is the same sub you have with a different name. I still only have one PW50 top, and I am going to see how this works before spending more on the system. We just had another music night last night, and at least for my basement, I think this system is going to do quite well.

Having said that... ... ... @The Kid! may well have a good point...

Originally Posted by The Kid!

IMO, you're not going to find any sub that will be anything but underwhelming at that price point. You'll have to get near and preferably over a grand to get a worthwhile sub... especially at outdoor tailgate parties.

I'd suggest a scalable system with a few powered speakers and at least one decent sub. I get that budget can be a concern, but buying an underpowered system is more of a waste of money in the long run.

I definitely get where you are coming from. Im a little old school - the adage that if you dont take the time (or money) to do something right, you better be ready to spend the time/money to do it twice. The real issue for me is trying to understand what I really will want to do with the system long term... is it just a basement jam session system, or will I ever be good enough to want to play publicly.

I hang out at open MIC nights a bit... one thing I have seen is that I really would never need to bring my own PA, there is PLENTY of equipment there already, and everyone just plugs in. So it starts to be a question of back yard house parties, and/or small venue gigs - and those are very open questions

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by MileHighJC

I picked up a Powerwerks PW112S sub for a good price, Sounds like that is the same sub you have with a different name. I still only have one PW50 top, and I am going to see how this works before spending more on the system. We just had another music night last night, and at least for my basement, I think this system is going to do quite well.

Having said that... ... ... @The Kid! may well have a good point...



I definitely get where you are coming from. Im a little old school - the adage that if you dont take the time (or money) to do something right, you better be ready to spend the time/money to do it twice. The real issue for me is trying to understand what I really will want to do with the system long term... is it just a basement jam session system, or will I ever be good enough to want to play publicly.

I hang out at open MIC nights a bit... one thing I have seen is that I really would never need to bring my own PA, there is PLENTY of equipment there already, and everyone just plugs in. So it starts to be a question of back yard house parties, and/or small venue gigs - and those are very open questions

When you get the sub, would you mind providing a review of what you think? Maybe even a YouTube video? I haven't found much info or reviews of this combo on the web, even though they are designed to go together. Thanks!

[Petty1818]

I have come to the conclusion that when it comes to subs, you really need to spend some money to get a decent tone. I remember I had a Yorkville sub for a while (great company), but it was only rated at 200watts. In the end, it wasn't even worth it to have on stage as it did little. It was just very under powered.

[MileHighJC]

Originally Posted by RedJoker

When you get the sub, would you mind providing a review of what you think? Maybe even a YouTube video? I haven't found much info or reviews of this combo on the web, even though they are designed to go together. Thanks!

Happy to - although a youtube probably wont tell the story very well with regard to the sound quality. It is supposed to arrive Saturday. My thought is to test in both my basement (pretty sure it can handle that), and on our deck in the spring for the "house party scenario".

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I have come to the conclusion that when it comes to subs, you really need to spend some money to get a decent tone. I remember I had a Yorkville sub for a while (great company), but it was only rated at 200watts. In the end, it wasn't even worth it to have on stage as it did little. It was just very under powered.

The PA112S is rated for 200 as well (400 peak). I would guess that it would not stand up to a performance venue of any size... but then again, my basement or the local taphouse are not of any size. Will it stand up to a house party on my deck with 30 guests at a volume that wont have the local police at my front door? THAT is going to be a good question, and I have no clue.



Probably the best question for me to answer is whether this setup is something I can grow with... with additional heads - maybe the PA100s or better... maybe a 2nd sub if needed... A lot of my attraction to these is a hope that I can get in for a little less, and expand/enhance over time. Maybe it will work, maybe it wont. I had the same problem trying to find reviews of the combo, and what I did find was largely the company marketing materials - which of COURSE is going to say they are great.

[MileHighJC]

The sub arrived this morning. Unfortunately, when I got to the porch, I knew there was trouble. The shipping box was severely damaged, it looked like it had been dropped. Sure enough the enclosure was damaged.

I contacted Amazon, and was pleasantly surprised at how quickly, and effectively the resolved the issue. Once they saw the photos of the damage a new one was on order within minutes.

While I wait for the new one, I hooked this one up. It still seems functional. While this will be far from a complete review, a few comments are worth sharing.

As I think I commented before, a single PA50 speaker sounded "OK" in my basement room (basically a 16x16 room, carpeted, sheet rock walls and ceiling, and lots of overstuffed furniture. It suffered by not having a lot of punch.

The sub really puts some punch into it... and a decent foundation of bass. I have been listening to pretty wide variety of music, as well as playing along. Clearly, this is not a system for large venues, but I think with a bit of EQ work it could sound pretty good in small venues, or even a medium size church.

It is PLENTY loud for my room. At any volume that I was willing/able to challenge it with it resulted in no clipping at all. It wasnt willing to turn it up louder than about 35-40% on the master volume in this small room - It dont need to lose any more hearing than I already have.

I have set it up with my pilot "home recording studio"... which is nothing more than a laptop with PreSonus Studio One Artist, a beginner Audio Interface (PreSonus AudioBox 96 USB), my old MIDI keyboard, and the Guitar. Fun playing around with putting together some music a track at a time...

Having said all of that, if I ever try to use it as a gig machine, I would think I would want to upgrade to at least 2 sub/head combos (which I may well do). I also think I will want a sound board... adjusting levels on the inputs individually on the head units just seems like a pain - great for a couple of inputs, but I think would quickly become a pain.

Net : sounds pretty good for the relatively small $ I have in it. Im pretty sure I can grow with it up to a point... But until I can test it in other rooms, Im not sure how far it can go.

I will try to do a more complete evaluation, maybe with video.

[RedJoker]

Thanks for the update. Just out of curiosity, if you were playing acoustic guitar and singing, does the sub help much? Since there isn't a lot of bass in an acoustic guitar and voice, part of me says it would not make much difference. On the other hand, off-loading a few of those low frequencies might help the PA50 perform better.

[MileHighJC]

Originally Posted by RedJoker

Thanks for the update. Just out of curiosity, if you were playing acoustic guitar and singing, does the sub help much? Since there isn't a lot of bass in an acoustic guitar and voice, part of me says it would not make much difference. On the other hand, off-loading a few of those low frequencies might help the PA50 perform better.

You are right, it isnt making a BIG difference, but it does "fill out" the sound quite a bit - which at least to my ear is quite pleasant. With the PW50 alone, I had to crank up the low frequency pot to maybe 75% to get it to sound right to me, and then they tended to clip sooner. Once the sub was there, I dropped them back to 50%, and it sounded good, and I had more room (and I actually was not getting it to clip at all... at least in my small room)

Where I did notice it A LOT was if I was playing along with an original artist recording (I do that a lot still). The other time is when I am layering up tracks in StudioOne... I record the original artist, then add a track with my acoustic, the lay down another track with a bass guitar (which I create using my Midi Keyboard and Studio One). Then I drop out the artist recording. The next step is add on a vocal track, but I dont have my mike yet.

[MileHighJC]

Ok, just had to relay this story... so while the better half was away today, thought I would crank up the rig a little more.

Probably had it up a bit over 50% on the master volume. Playing some blues loops that I put together on StudioOne last night (drums, bass, keyboards, Hammond organ, rhythm and lead guitar...

So the room I have all this in is also the basement sports cave... on the wall across from the Powerwerks are a couple of shelves with bobble head Colorado Rockies players. After about 30 seconds of this, two of them rattled enough to fall off the wall and break :-)

So... I guess its safe to say that the sub still works...

[RedJoker]

I guess so! Ha!

[MileHighJC]

A quick update. I "inherited" a Behringer X1204USB mixer this past week. After a couple of nights fiddling with it (with some help from my brother who has been a sound man for a couple of large theaters back in Ohio) the Powerwerks rig is now performing at an even higher level.

Background: So far I have one PW50 head, and two PW122S subs running. I will be adding another PW50BT to the mix as soon as it comes into my local shop. Before the mixer, I had been running the PW50 directly into its inputs (one MIC, one acoustic guitar), and a backing track into the aux input. Works great, and very convenient if I wanted simplicity (say a small gig in a taphouse). Not a lot of gear, small, easily portable, easy to set up.



When I first set up the mixer, I was feeding the signal (incorrectly) into the XLR input for MIC. I had more hiss in the background than I was willing to accept, and after a lot of fiddling with gains, I pretty much tamed it. After spending enough time to learn about the proper way to set up and configure the board, and studying the PW50 block diagram, I learned that I was basically using both the pre-amp in the mixer AND the PW50, and that was introducing the background noise/hiss. I now have it set up balanced (XLR) into the input side of the PowerLink, which I figured out bypassed the pre-amp and went directly onto the main bus.

This had two very pleasant effects, first the hiss was gone. The second, which I didnt expect was the sub was MUCH clearer, with more punch, even at very low volumes. We figured out that the MIC input had a low cut filter on it (makes sense for MIC, not so much for input from the board). Using the Powerlink input bypasses the low cut filter.

I am really looking forward to getting the second head onto the rig. I think it is going to be very nice, and more than enough sound for maybe even a medium sized room. Ill see soon enough.




What do I think this all means? Subject to the last level of tests after the second head is here, I think the Powerwerks gear is a nice option as a highly portable low cost PA that does not REQUIRE a mixer board. Daisy chaining them together over the Powerlink makes it pretty scale-able as well.

HOWEVER, with a mixer the configuration seems to shine even more... Ill be able to do stereo very easily, and connected into the Powerlink input from te mixed generates even BETTER sound, that is then easy to manage from front of house. It is MUCH easier to quickly detect, and correct any clipping. Balancing levels between inputs is also MUCH MUCH easier.

I have little doubt that I will be able to host a very nice house concert this summer (which is already in the plan), even if I had only one PW50 and one PW112S, but with both subs and heads I expect it will be fantastic sounding.

More once I get the second head, hopefully with some video, and some direct comparisons between configurations.