Theory is boring to me..

[gfraz]

This was super helpful. Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by Toby001

The circle of fifths is pretty easy to remember. Start with the C Major scale which has no sharps:

C - C D E F G A B C

Then, look above and identify the fifth note in the progression: G. So, G has one sharp and you know it's going to be the F# because a major scale always has the major 7th which is a half-step back from the root.

G - G A B C D E F# G

The fifth note in the above progression is... D. D has the F# (from the G scale) AND the major 7th (half step back from D) which is C#. So,

D - D E F# G A B C# D

The fifth note in the above progression is... A. A has the F# (from the G scale), the C# (from the D scale) AND it adds its major 7th, the G#. So,

A - A B C# D E F# G# A

The fifth note in the above progression is... E. E has the F#, the C#, the G#, and we add the D# (the major 7th in E). So,

E - E F# G# A B C# D# E

B - B C# D# E F# G# A# B

F# - F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

C# - C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

So, if you're playing in C# (god forbid) and you know that a Major chord is made up of the 1, the 3, and the 5 of the scale, and you wish to play a C# Major, you would play C# E# G#.

Minor chords are made by flatting the 3rd. If you want to play a C# minor, you would play C# E G# (the E# is flatted).

How about a Major 7? Just add the 7th note from the scale (1 3 5 7): C# E# G# B#

Hope this helps. It can actually be (kind of) fun. -Toby

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Right Jeff...

Quiet reasoning is working so well...

Didn't see much in the way of "quiet reasoning."

OP are you out there?

[williejohnson]

[QUOTE=jasperguitar;3057400] Its called "teaching" not showing. /QUOTE]

Jasper, I would argue that "showing" is teaching.

[prsplayer12]

I dont know why you all think I can't read music or time signatures or anything.. If you refer to my second post I said I can. I played Piano and Trumpet for 7 years when I was younger.

Jeff, I'm not really sure if it would help with improv or anything, that was just more of an example.. so, sorry for that confusion.

Basically, I understand reading notes, scores, time signatures, dynamics, from piano and trumpet, but that was just band class and I never learned anything past what notes to play when.

What I don't know and what I was trying to ask when I started this thread was more about fundamentals I guess as you all are referring to it. Like Jasper said, I am trying to learn the basics and fundamentals of the different scales, chord structure, etc. If someone tells me that something is in the key of E for example, that somehthing is a Phygrian _ scale, or says something about a 7th or a triad, I don't really know what any of that means.

Toby001, thank you for the explanation of the circle of fifths. I think I understand that.. (I think.. you may be getting a Pm later if I have a question)

And for the record I think all of you, (Jeff, Larry, Jasper, Sugarbear, Willie) are all correct in some respect. IMO, someone doesn't need to know anything about theory, fundamentals, reading music, etc. to play music. but at the same time, if you look at practically any professional (not 100%, but most) will have at least some knowledge of the matter. I believe that it can make you a better player the same way understanding how to use a computer program can make you more efficient using it. But it is certainly not required to play.

I want to learn to build chords, and be able to apply the fundamentals and reasoning behind things to the music that I love playing.

Hopefully that cleared up some confusion?

Thanks for all the input by the way everyone.

[mr. beaumont]

Definitely cleared up my confusion.

Okay, so you don't really need a theory book...what you need is a few pieces of knowledge:

So here's a few things you'll need to know...I recently posted this in another "theory/fundamentals" thread, so here it is, copied and pasted...it was originally written for someone else, so you might already have a grasp on some of this stuff.

Music theory is piano theory...so there's 12 notes in music...this does not include the little in between notes us guitar players can get from bending (those notes are very common in the music of other cultures as well)--so we're just keeping it simple: 12 notes...those notes comprise what's called the Chromatic "scale." From the sound of your OP, it seems you know these notes, so I won't push any further...

Each of these 12 notes can be used to create a major scale. The major scale is kinda the foundation for Western music...it's good old "Do Re Mi" etc...

All 12 of the major scales folow the same pattern. We start with one note...the next note is a whole step up...then the next is another whole step away...the fourth note is a half step away...

Here's the whole formula: W W H W W W H (where W is whole and H is half)

Sooooo...let's start with C.

Applying that formula, we start on C, go up a whole step to D, another whole to E, etc...

Here's the C major scale:

C D E F G A B

Now do that for all 12 keys. Write them down somewhere, neatly, they're going to come in handy.

In every key, include each letter of the musical alphabet (ABCDEFG) only once...so F major is F G A Bb C D E, not F G A A# C D E, okay?

If you check out the cycle of fifths you see a really nice way of remembering what's sharp and flat in every key, but for now, do it the hard way, count intervals.


Once you have all 12 major scales mapped out, we can get into basic harmony.

Chords are formed by stacking notes in the intervals of a minor third (notes 1 1/2 steps apart) or a major third (2 steps apart) Confusing? No worries...the major scales make it easy-- by simply starting on each note of a scale, then taking every other note, we can figure out what chords belong to a key.

There's a pattern to this too, which I'll reveal, but let's get the note names first...We're going to make 3 note chords--triads. This is really all you're playing when you play a big old G barre chord or whatever--three different notes...we'll get into fancier chords later---what the triads will give us is the major and minor chords that belong to a key (and one diminished triad...but more on that later) We'll get into jucier chords like 7ths and 9ths and sus and allthat later...easy stuff first.

Okay, so back to C major:

C D E F G A B

Starting with C, i skip D and take E, skip F and take G. So there's my first triad...C E G. Next one will start with D...then F...then A.

Continue all of them. Write them down. Then do all 12 keys. Really.


Here, I'll give you the rest of C:

CEG
DFA
EGB
FAC
GBD
ACE
BDF


These notes spell the following chords:

Cmajor
Dminor
Eminor
Fmajor
Gmajor
Aminor

and a B diminished triad. This isn't used so commonly, just know of it for now.

That pattern holds the same for all; 12 keys-- first chord is major, second is always minor, etc.


Do that for all 12 keys.

This will teach you which chords are derivitave of which major scales...but chord building can be thought of as a simple formula process, once you know your major scales.

(the following is another post I made about chord naming/building some time ago, I hope it helps you)

All chord naming comes from the major scale of the note considered to be the root. We’re going to use C in all examples for sake of ease. So any kind of C-rooted chord—majors, minors, dominants, whate have you—we’re starting with the C major scale.

And here it is: C D E F G A B

Each note is a scale degree, and can be numbered—so C is 1 (1 is often called the “root”—they’re synonymous for our purposes here), D is 2, so on and so forth. When we get into higher extensions of chords (9ths, 11ths and 13ths) we simply start over and keep numbering. So D is also the 9th, and A (the sixth) is also a 13th. Not too bad, right? We’ll talk in a minute about WHY and WHEN to use these higher numbers.

Your basic major and minor chords have a very simple formula—major is 1,3,5—and minor is 1, b3, 5

So a C major chord is the first, third and fifth note of the C scale, or C, E, and G. Anywhere you can play C, E, and G is a potential C major chord.

For minor, we’re going to lower that third note by a half step (“flat”) so instead of E, we’ll have Eb. A C minor chord is C, Eb and G.

This is the easy stuff. Next, we’re going to add the 7th. This will get us into some slightly jucier chords—the maj7, m7, dominant 7 (often just called “7”) and the half diminished.

Here’s the formulas for these chords:

Maj7: 1, 3, 5, 7 (Cmaj7 is C E G B)

Dominant 7 (7th) 1, 3, 5, b7 (C7 is C E G Bb)

Minor 7th (m7) : 1, b3, 5, b7 ( C Eb G Bb)

Half Diminished (m7b5) : 1, b3, b5, b7 (C, Eb, Gb, Bb)

Now we’ll get into the even jucier extensions, 9th’s, 11th’s and 13th’s.

Here’s where things get dicey. See, all chord building “theory” comes from the king of all polyphonic instruments—the ukulele. (Okay, I’m kidding, it’s the piano)

Now, on the piano, you can play 10 notes at once. (Actually, more, if you try hard enough)—but on the guitar, we’re limited to six (unless our guitar has more than six strings) Because of this, often what we call a 9th 11th or 13th doesn’t actually have all of the notes piano theory tells us it should (particularly the 13ths, as you’ll see, but you can suggest a ninth chord with as few as 2 or 3 notes—but let’s not get ahead of ourselves)

Nomenclature becomes important here, and “function” or “context” (you know, the words us theory snobs always pepper “what chord is this?” threads with) sneaks in. Here’s what you have to know:

In order to go to the 9th, 11th, or 13th degree, it’s assumed that the chord is already at least a seventh. So a Cmaj9 is a Cmaj7 chord, and then we add the ninth. That’s right, 5 notes: C E G B D (see how that D comes into play as a ninth)

Furthermore, as you can see, the distinction between major and dominant comes into play—if the chord says “maj”, we assume there’s a 7th in there some where. Dominant chords forego the “dom” usually and go right to the extension # after the root letter (a la C9) and it is assumed the dominant chord has a b7 present.

So again, the difference:

Cmaj9: C E G B D

C9: C E G Bb D

So lets look at some formulas and see what we can do with ‘em:

Maj9: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9

Dom9 (9) 1, 3, 5, b7, 9

Minor 9 (m9): 1, b3, 5, b7, 9

Eleventh chords assume 7th and 9th are present! So a C11 can contain 1, 3, 5, b7, 9 and 11. It’s getting notey, eh?

Think about a 13th. A Cmaj13 could include 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13th. I don’t know about you, but I’m out of fingers.

This is why these chords get a little trickier to name—on the guitar, we’ll often play only the most important notes…what the most important notes are is different in any given situation, but a good rule of thumb is that the fifth and root can be the first to get dropped, and the 3rd and 7th are good ones to keep around…in other words, playing the note cluster of E, Bb, and A while a bass player plays a C can get the point across of a C13 chord. Lots of musicians will call these “sounds”—i.e. “I’m playing a C13 sound there.” It’s understood that guitarists won’t be playing the whole chord (and implied for pianists too—the essence is the most important, not pounding out all seven notes)

Then we get into alterations—this is when we do something to the 5th or 9th of the chord—raise it or lower it. I’ve thrown out a ton of info so far, so I’ll keep this short, but a C7#9, for example (the “Hendrix Chord”) has a formula of 1, 3, 5, b7, #9—which gives you C, E, G, Bb and D#.

The most common “grip” for this chord (x 3 2 3 4 x) drops the fifth (no G) and uses 1, 3, b7 and #9.

The dicey-ist area of chord naming has to be when it comes to “sus” and “add” chords. Here’s briefly what you should know about them:

“sus” essentially means there’s no third (but this is a point that has been argued—I’m trying to keep things simple) The # after the “sus” tells you which scale degree to include instead of the third (2 or 4) The formulas are as such:

sus2: 1, 2, 5

sus4: 1, 4, 5

“Add” chords get even a little weirder. “add” simply means to add the note to the three note major or minor chord without going through the other extensions first (so a Cadd11 chord will not have a 7th or 9th, it’d be 1, 3, 5, and 11.)

Further confusion comes into play when using the # 2 or 9, or 4 or 11. A good rule of thumb is if you want the extension to be in the upper part of the chord (higher strings) use the bigger number. This is a dicey area, admittedly, but your point can be made—if you want to play a C, E, G, and D—calling it a Cadd9 is just fine.

The last thing we’ll look at here are the “6” chords (6 and minor 6)

These chords are assumed to not have a 7th. So C6 is 1, 3, 5, 6 (C E G A) and Cm6 is 1, b3, 5, 6 (C, Eb, G, A)

Note there is no “Dominant 6th” as the b7 is the note that makes a major triad (three note chord) into a dominant chord, and there’s no 7th present in a “6” chord.

There’s also the common 6/9 chord, which uses the 6th and the 9th but no 7th. C6/9 is 1, 3, 5, 6, 9, or C E G A D.

Let me stop here, I'm running out of characters, I'm sure...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by prsplayer12

I dont know why you all think I can't read music or time signatures or anything.

Hi prs...

I don't think we all think that. One person mentioned that you need to learn to read (6 times in the same post).

That was where I made the mistake of diverting my attention to him instead of your topic...and for that I apologize.

If there is a community college near where you live, I wonder that they might offer theory classes. Since you play other instruments and read, it should be a breeze to learn chord construction, circle of 5ths etc.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by prsplayer12

I want to learn to build chords, and be able to apply the fundamentals and reasoning behind things to the music that I love playing.

For starters, building chords within their keys and their diatonic relationship to one another, is a good idea. Personally, I've found that basic functional harmony opens up many possibilities for further theoretical studies.
As far as 'reasoning', I believe, that is a loaded word.
I think, in music, a good reason is if something you've learned sounds good to your ear...a bad reason is if something you've learned makes you look only one way and makes you stubborn (...but I read this is the only way, etc.). Lets not forget one thing, music is an art form, which means, anybody can take liberties to explore music in ways that are not always adhere to conventional music theory.

[Toby001]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...Furthermore, as you can see, the distinction between major and dominant comes into play—if the chord says “maj”, we assume there’s a 7th in there some where.

Did you mean to say there's a major 7th in there somewhere? Yes, I did read it all.

Ukelele - Funny

[Warren Gilmour]

See, all chord building “theory” comes from the king of all polyphonic instruments—the ukulele. (Okay, I’m kidding, it’s the piano)

: Too funny

As for the rest of the post...excellent stuff. Pretty much everything and anything you need to know about the basics of general theory in a nice condensed (sort of) format

[j3ffr0]

The Hal Leonard book you are learning from is a good book, however, it's kind of advanced. The explanations of some of the introductory concepts are a little incomplete. I'd suggest picking up perhaps a second theory book to get a different (non guitar centric) perspective. Secondly, listen to and play with the stuff in the Hal Leonard book to get experience with the application of the theory.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Toby001

Did you mean to say there's a major 7th in there somewhere? Yes, I did read it all.

Ukelele - Funny

I suppose that would be clearer, but since I 'm using the major scale as my base that could be assumed...if I was talking about a dominant chord, i'd say "flat seventh."

Thanks for reading my whole ramble!

[Gerbilkit]

I'm currently learning a lot of the theory you are interested in. Triads, chord construction, scales, progressions, etc. I'm using the book Fretboard Theory by Desi Serna and his DVDs. It really helps me to tie things together quickly even with only a very beginners level knowledge of theory. It doesn't spend time with notation or abstract theory but goes straight to how to apply it to the fretboard. Very useful. I think someone wrote a similar book called fretboard logic you could look up, I haven't tried that one. The nice thing about this is that it is written from a guitar players perspective and not a piano player's.

[prsplayer12]

Jeff, you have a PM with a question..

Thanks for all the input guys, it is very helpful and greatly appreciated.

Would someone be able to explain the difference between a Chromatic, Pentatonic, and Phrygian scales are?

I know that chromatic is what Jeff was just saying, (i.e. C D E F G A B), and that a pentatonic has only 5 notes (hence penta-).. but is that the only difference? So would a pentatonic C major scale be C D E F G?

[Bern]

Originally Posted by prsplayer12

Jeff, you have a PM with a question..

Thanks for all the input guys, it is very helpful and greatly appreciated.

Would someone be able to explain the difference between a Chromatic, Pentatonic, and Phrygian scales are?

I know that chromatic is what Jeff was just saying, (i.e. C D E F G A B), and that a pentatonic has only 5 notes (hence penta-).. but is that the only difference? So would a pentatonic C major scale be C D E F G?

C D E F G A B...no that is NOT a chromatic scale, it is a C major scale.
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A#(Bb) B C...that is a chromatic scale

[mr. beaumont]

The chromatic scale isn't really a scale, it's just all 12 pitches in a row...

CDEFGAB is C major.

A major pentatonic scale takes the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th note of the major scale...so C major pentatonic is CDEGA.

I'll try to get to your PM soon, got a few lessons to teach...