Theory is boring to me..

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"I'm not saying don't learn theory. I am saying--without a grasp of the fundamentals, theory's just a "cloud." And I'm saying that guitar players seem to call a lot of stuff theory that isn't.

Furthermore, learning a little theory never helped anyone who didn't have a GOAL in mind. I have students come to me all the time and ask about theory...I ask them why they want to learn it...they often say something like "So I can get better with scales and stuff"...that's not a goal.

Set goals. Theory isn't magic. It explains music after the fact. If you don't know clearly what you want to get get out of it, it's a useless quest."




Very good answer. Next question; how do you define "goals"?

"So I can get better with scales and stuff" has the same answer as, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" Practice, practice , practice.

Oh, and stop thinking everything you play must be shred.

What's a definable goal when it comes to learning music theory? Especially for someone just beginning to play an instrument.

I'm a teacher-dork, so I make my students make "smart" goals...it's an acronym (because modern pedagogy loves acronyms)

S is specific
M is measurable
A is action oriented
R is realistic
T is time based.

My students goals must fit this template...so like I said, "get better with scales and stuff" is weak. It will get the student nowhere...a smart goal would be : "use scales to improvise solos over 3 simple jazz standards by july."

Again, back to theory...you just have no need for it until you have the fundamentals down...theory comes after, to explain...fundamentals are differentm..they can actually help you play better music....I consider fretboard knowledge, the major scale, basic harmony and chord construction to be fundamental. For any student who asks me about "theory" I call these fundamentals "non negotiable."

*when I say "major scale" I'm not even so concerned about being able to play them...you gotta KNOW them...they will help you understand chords, and chords are ridiculously important to understand.

*when you get into stuff like jazz, theory can actually make you a better player, assuming you have your fundamentals and technique down. Outside of that, theory only helps you understand, it never makes anybody "pllay" better.

[Da Sugarbear]

I read Jasper Guitar's comment about "If you want to be called a musician, you must be able to read music. Period. No discussion. I don't care about some country singer who learned to play on the porch. I don't want to hear that Joe Smoke never read music. Or Tommy E, or Fast Fingers Willy.
I don't think that he could be farther off the mark! This sounds like plain old 'Work' not 'Play' and, from many, many years of teaching, it is obvious that the student's ambition is to be able to play. That's what motivates them to consider learning the instrument in the first place. Making such absolute and rigid dictums generally goes agains the very spirit of having fun and enjoying the guitar. Aside from being portable, one of the best things about the guitar is that you can learn to play a few songs in just a couple of weeks with basic chords. That's one of the main reasons that it is the most popular instrument in history!
If you make music and play your instrument, you are a musician... maybe not a good one but that's another discussion altogether. To say that Tommy Emmanuel isn't a musician is not only absurd but shows a narrow-mindedness that is far from admirable. I can read music but, unless there is a particular situation where I need to read, I don't. Reading enables me to copy someone else's composition exactly BUT that's not typically what guitar players are trying to do. I have found that knowing chords and tab and having a good ear will certainly take you a long way down the road to enjoying the instrument. I used to tell my students that if they wanted to learn classical guitar, then we needed to approach the guitar by reading... if they wanted to play country or folk or rock or a lot of the other styles, then they needed to work on chord structures, changes, substitutions and their ear training. Reading music for the guitar for 95% of the people who want to just play chords and accompany a vocal is not only unnecessary but can actually end up being a deterrent, slowing progress and taking a lot of the fun out of the learning experience.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jasperguitar

...If you want to be called a musician, you must be able to read music. Period. No discussion.

Oh Jasper - untwist your shorts man!

If you feel that way, you are wrong...period...with a point or two of discussion.

I've met too many note readers who are not ever going to be confused as musicians, and too many musicians who don't read 'notation'.

[Paikon]

the question " who is musician and who is not" is just philosophical!
the other question "are readers better musicians than no readers" or vice versa is fake
reading (language or music),is a tool and i don't think that someone here will say that someones ability to read and write his language destroyed his ability to think and express himself
its the same with music

[jasperguitar]

I stand by my posting. Learn to read music, it is not hard. I'm not saying someone needs to become an arranger, but the basics of reading music, notes, lines, spaces, key signatures, etc.. Would you hire a carpenter who could not even read the basic plans of the job? Music is a discipline. It requires a certain amount of study. As well as fun playing songs.

Anyone who writes that they don't care to learn to read music and that it is not important, in my opinion is full of ............ you know what.

I'm sorry.. that is the way it is.. period.

I started playing music as a kid, and I sure was not that smart. It didn't take me very long to read the basics of music.

How can someone explain what a 7th chord is, if the person you are trying to tell, does not know how many notes are in the scale, or where, or for what purpose.

I recently spoke with a great guitar teacher. She told me flat out, she is not going to waste her time so little Johnny can learn a Taylor Swift recording so he can impress his classmates. She said, she spent many years studying music, playing the guitar. She is a teacher. She teaches music.

Learn to read music. ♫ ♫ ♪ ♪

[oldhippiegal]

OP: If something bores you now, don't do it now.

It's not like you or I is likely to become a Grammy-winning professional musician next week. We're in it for the fun, right? Therefore, the test is: is this fun? Am I having fun yet?

If you aren't, don't do it.

As you progress, there will come a time when doing pentatonic exercises to a metronome will feel like fun because it's getting you closer to excellence in the solos you're working on and it's fun to hear that improvement and be able to make the solo more emotional. There will come a time when theory is fun because you've half figured it out on your own and now it's fascinating that there's already an established vocabulary for all this...or you'll hear someone say, oh yeah, that Santana solo is a brilliant use of the modal...and you'll think, hmm, what's a mode? And you'll go figure that out then.

Keep the learning fun. And organic to wherever you are in making music.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by jasperguitar

I stand by my posting. Learn to read music, it is not hard. I'm not saying someone needs to become an arranger, but the basics of reading music, notes, lines, spaces, key signatures, etc.. Would you hire a carpenter who could not even read the basic plans of the job? Music is a discipline. It requires a certain amount of study. As well as fun playing songs.

Anyone who writes that they don't care to learn to read music and that it is not important, in my opinion is full of ............ you know what.

I'm sorry.. that is the way it is.. period.

I started playing music as a kid, and I sure was not that smart. It didn't take me very long to read the basics of music.

How can someone explain what a 7th chord is, if the person you are trying to tell, does not know how many notes are in the scale, or where, or for what purpose.

I recently spoke with a great guitar teacher. She told me flat out, she is not going to waste her time so little Johnny can learn a Taylor Swift recording so he can impress his classmates. She said, she spent many years studying music, playing the guitar. She is a teacher. She teaches music.

Learn to read music. ♫ ♫ ♪ ♪

I like how you're sticking to your guns on this, even though I don't totally agree with you...

People come to music for different reasons...depending on how far they want to go into it, that determines how far they need to expand their knowledge...

My take has always been that if someone else is paying for a student's lessons (i.e. Mom and Dad) they're going to learn to read...they're going to learn the fundamentals...as a teacher, I absolutely owe it to children to give them that footing...their brains can soak it up much easier than an adult's, and they have the backing in case they want to go seriously into music later in life (at the very least, they become THE kid to sit next to in music class)

I'll go as far as to say a teacher has NO business teaching kids if they won't teach them to read...but I digress...this thread isn't about reading and writing music or the definition of a musician...it's about theory.

Real music theory, the heavy stuff, isn't something 9 out of 10 players needs to know...I'll say it again though, fundamentals can help everyone...

I really wish the OP would check back in...he said he wanted to help his improv skills...in what context? That's way too vague to actually help you with anything...OP, how do you think theory will help you with improv? Do you have your fundamentals down cold?

[williejohnson]

Originally Posted by jasperguitar

I recently spoke with a great guitar teacher. She told me flat out, she is not going to waste her time so little Johnny can learn a Taylor Swift recording so he can impress his classmates.

So, since she doesn't want to waste her time actually teaching someone to play the guitar, exactly what is it that makes her a great guitar teacher? She may or may not be a good "music" teacher but I would never call someone with that attitude a great "guitar" teacher.

[jasperguitar]

The reason she is such a success as a guitar teacher is that she teaches music, shows how to play it, and gives the student a good foundation. Later, that student might go become a heavy metal band member, who knows what.. but at least the student has "learned" something. Its called "teaching" not showing. She has also written her own book [s]. In my neck of the music woods, there are people who call themselves teachers, they just don't bother teaching. They show. They sit down with some kid, show him/her how to make a chord shape, listen to Britney or Taylor or Justin or .. and then the kid can go off and play his/her one song.

There is nothing wrong with playing music and having fun. That is the pleasure of music. But, the question that started this thread had to do with was it worthwhile to learn theory. I'm not fond of the word theory, rather, I like foundation. Simple, reading notes, understanding the basics of scales, chord structure, etc. Nothing too, too, difficult.

A teacher "teaches" ............

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jasperguitar

...How can someone explain what a 7th chord is, if the person you are trying to tell, does not know how many notes are in the scale, or where, or for what purpose.

Hi Jasper...

By scale degree...and it takes 5 minutes and a couple simple exercises to demonstrate and teach how to change a chord from major chord to a major 7 to dominant 7th, to a 6th to sus4 or sus2, and the difference between a 2 form or a 9 form of a chord.

You are confusing some issues here. Just because a player doesn't know how to read dots on a page doesn't mean they will not play and understand scales, or scale degree, know the names of notes on the fingerboard, and the root of the chord/scale.

Scales and chords didn't originate with pen and ink. Nor do they die without pen and ink.

[Gerbilkit]

Originally Posted by jasperguitar

I stand by my posting. Learn to read music, it is not hard. I'm not saying someone needs to become an arranger, but the basics of reading music, notes, lines, spaces, key signatures, etc.. Would you hire a carpenter who could not even read the basic plans of the job? Music is a discipline. It requires a certain amount of study. As well as fun playing songs.

Anyone who writes that they don't care to learn to read music and that it is not important, in my opinion is full of ............ you know what.

I'm sorry.. that is the way it is.. period.

I started playing music as a kid, and I sure was not that smart. It didn't take me very long to read the basics of music.

How can someone explain what a 7th chord is, if the person you are trying to tell, does not know how many notes are in the scale, or where, or for what purpose.

I recently spoke with a great guitar teacher. She told me flat out, she is not going to waste her time so little Johnny can learn a Taylor Swift recording so he can impress his classmates. She said, she spent many years studying music, playing the guitar. She is a teacher. She teaches music.

Learn to read music. ♫ ♫ ♪ ♪

I'm going to say this politely. But your attitude is pompous, arrogant, and flat out wrong. I won't comment on your guitar teacher because I don't know her and why she would make a comment like that. Maybe she associates such students with people who won't stick around longer than a few weeks or months and she wants more commitment. Whatever. I'm going to go ahead and ask. What is wrong with little Johnny wanting to learn a Taylor Swift song to impress his classmates? What is wrong with my sister bringing in Disney pop songs (besides the mental torture for me :P)? What is wrong with a busy working professional who doesn't have much time to devote to guitar wanting to learn how to play some popular love songs for his wife or girlfriend by the end of the summer?

Your definition of music is narrow. And your opinion of who should and should not be allowed to play guitar is not universal. Not to mention why do you need to read standard musical notation to understand a major scale or 7th chord on a guitar? (hint: You don't)

In my line of work I routinely help people with far less computer knowledge than me. Your attitude would be the equivalent of me saying that unless people can competently understand how to work from a unix shell and how to write and execute scripts they should not be allowed to use a computer.

I'm sure you are probably a fine guitarist and good at reading notation and you consider this very important to your playing. That's perfectly fine, it's also fine to suggest to others that they really would benefit from learning what you know. It's ridiculous to suggest everyone needs to learn or play music exactly like you.

[Toby001]

The circle of fifths is pretty easy to remember. Start with the C Major scale which has no sharps:

C - C D E F G A B C

Then, look above and identify the fifth note in the progression: G. So, G has one sharp and you know it's going to be the F# because a major scale always has the major 7th which is a half-step back from the root.

G - G A B C D E F# G

The fifth note in the above progression is... D. D has the F# (from the G scale) AND the major 7th (half step back from D) which is C#. So,

D - D E F# G A B C# D

The fifth note in the above progression is... A. A has the F# (from the G scale), the C# (from the D scale) AND it adds its major 7th, the G#. So,

A - A B C# D E F# G# A

The fifth note in the above progression is... E. E has the F#, the C#, the G#, and we add the D# (the major 7th in E). So,

E - E F# G# A B C# D# E

B - B C# D# E F# G# A# B

F# - F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

C# - C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

So, if you're playing in C# (god forbid) and you know that a Major chord is made up of the 1, the 3, and the 5 of the scale, and you wish to play a C# Major, you would play C# E# G#.

Minor chords are made by flatting the 3rd. If you want to play a C# minor, you would play C# E G# (the E# is flatted).

How about a Major 7? Just add the 7th note from the scale (1 3 5 7): C# E# G# B#

Hope this helps. It can actually be (kind of) fun. -Toby

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by to Jasper

...I'm going to say this politely. But your attitude is pompous, arrogant, and flat out wrong.
...It's ridiculous to suggest everyone needs to learn or play music exactly like you.

I agree with these points...

[mr. beaumont]

Yay! Let's pile on jasper!

There's a constructive way to disagree, you know.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Yay! Let's pile on jasper!
...There's a constructive way to disagree, you know.

Right Jeff...

Quiet reasoning is working so well...