"Return Denied" on a trial guitar... any guidance?

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by ThermiteTermite

I think the bottom line is that an unsupported assertion from one interested party is not enough to go on. I think the scratches are probably small but the facts that the OP will not show images and that he bought two instruments, kept one and sold it, and returned the expensive one, make me hesitate to take his side in any part of this dispute.

Well stated, thank you!

The OP admitted he was told there were “micro SCRATCHES”, not swirl marks, no, SCRATCHES. So everyone who wants to buy a new guitar with scratches, speak up! Or better yet, offer to buy the OP’s new guitar, sight unseen because there have been no pictures after repeated requests for them.

No takers, I thought so. So until there’s evidence of wrongdoing by the shop, let’s put out the torches and stop bashing guitar store owners who are barely holding on. They have enough challenges without being convicted without evidence.

[Kh1967]

I consistently work with a handful of dealers who know me. They trust me, and I trust them. They get my business repeatedly because they treat me well and I would like to believe, I earned it.

If I am evaluating a guitar on a trial basis, I am extremely careful. But, things can happen, and I have had that very thing occur. In spite of my best efforts, I dinged a guitar I had on evaluation. I did not love the guitar but, instead of trying to return it, I called the shop told them wat happened and handed over my payment.

Since the guitar was not for me, I shipped the guitar back to the shop and they put it on consignment for me. It worked out for them, and it for me. Sure...I took a hit financially, but I could sleep at night and years later, the shop owner and I are close personal friends.

Lead with integrity is my belief...when you do, life gets pretty simple.

[The Bard Rocks]

And let's not bash people who don't post photos. 1) He may not have any. and 2) It IS a hassle to post them here - for many of us. You won't see any from me for that reason. I did it once for a guitar I had for sale and it'll take that much for me to go through that again. I am always amazed at how easy some of you seem to find the process, because it doesn't echo my one experience..

[Beakybird]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

Well stated, thank you!

The OP admitted he was told there were “micro SCRATCHES”, not swirl marks, no, SCRATCHES. So everyone who wants to buy a new guitar with scratches, speak up! Or better yet, offer to buy the OP’s new guitar, sight unseen because there have been no pictures after repeated requests for them.

Well put. I hate scratches. I won't even eat a recipe made from scratch.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by Kh1967

I consistently work with a handful of dealers who know me. They trust me, and I trust them. They get my business repeatedly because they treat me well and I would like to believe, I earned it.

If I am evaluating a guitar on a trial basis, I am extremely careful. But, things can happen, and I have had that very thing occur. In spite of my best efforts, I dinged a guitar I had on evaluation. I did not love the guitar but, instead of trying to return it, I called the shop told them wat happened and handed over my payment.

Since the guitar was not for me, I shipped the guitar back to the shop and they put it on consignment for me. It worked out for them, and it for me. Sure...I took a hit financially, but I could sleep at night and years later, the shop owner and I are close personal friends.

Lead with integrity is my belief...when you do, life gets pretty simple.

Sounds like you looked at your situation from both sides (buyer and seller) and made a good call.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Sillyak

That is crazy! How much does this add to the price of products??

I would be willing to pay less for a no return option in my general shopping, both online and bricks and mortar. I don't return anything, unless it is defective. I think the only thing I have returned in the last 10 years was a rifle scope that had a shifting zero with magnification change (defective.)

I read an article where a guy was buying a new high end pair of binos. He bought all the top offerings from Zeiss, Swarovski and Leica at Cabelas because they would let him return all but the one he wanted after 30 days. After a month of use they would probably have to sell the returns as demos.

How much extra have I paid over the years subsidizing these return policies? One could say these policies lead to more sales = more profit, which is true, but it has a cost and that cost is invariably made up for in the price.

Not sure how much it costs us but I expect, based on the increasing return culture trend, it will cost us more in the future. Maybe a controversial angle but, in effect, non returners are subsidizing the returners. Ultimately, everybody pays.

Within the last year, LL Bean dropped their no questions asked no time limit return policy. Now they have a time limit, 1 year if dissatisfied and after that maybe if found defective. Seems folks were returning things they simply wore out. This kind of abuse, and it is abuse, comes from a mindset that is foreign to me.

Abuse isn't really the subject here, though I have seen some abused returns, but this forum is not a place to dismiss small details. On an expensive instrument, it doesn't take much to rile folks up. The OP guitar is no exception. If resold as new with small surface indications, plenty of people will explode when they receive it.

hunter

[Mr. Paul]

This isn't a "trial guitar" it's a return of a purchased guitar.

It's pretty easy to figure out who this dealer is. Return policy clearly states item must be in same condition as when received, same as every other dealer that offers a return window.

OP has referenced the photo the dealer sent him of the damage. He has it. If he wants help posting it all he has to do is ask and send it to someone to post for him. A reasonable conclusion is that the OP doesn't feel the photo helps his case.

He has said he would post an update yesterday, he hasn't.

I'm glad I'm not in retail.

[guitar george]

I have seen the term "B-stock" or "b-stock" mentioned in this thread and in ads for items for sale. What does B-stock mean? Whenever I see that term in an ad I completely ignore the item.

[ancient tones]

Originally Posted by guitar george

I have seen the term "B-stock" or "b-stock" mentioned in this thread and in ads for items for sale. What does B-stock mean? Whenever I see that term in an ad I completely ignore the item.

Some dealers use "b-stock" pricing as a way to list essentially new stock at below MAP pricing.

Others may be selling a floor "model" or a "demo model" as "b-stock".

[Beakybird]

Originally Posted by guitar george

I have seen the term "B-stock" or "b-stock" mentioned in this thread and in ads for items for sale. What does B-stock mean? Whenever I see that term in an ad I completely ignore the item.

B-stock means customer return, store demo, manufacturer's demo. I've bought B-stock musical items that came brand new factory sealed but without warranty. Evidently, the store wants to get rid of them at a price that would displease the manufacturer if it were sold new.

[Tube Sound]

Originally Posted by guitar george

I have seen the term "B-stock" or "b-stock" mentioned in this thread and in ads for items for sale. What does B-stock mean? Whenever I see that term in an ad I completely ignore the item.

From an auction site: "B-stock and refurbished guitars are items which upon inspection by the manufacturer fail to meet their quality control guidelines. Issues such as a scratch or minor finish flaw prevent them from being sold as “New”."

[Photojeep]

To the OP,
What is the result?
PJ

[cmd612]

I read all 8 pages of this thread, but maybe I missed something. I don't see the answer to what seems to me to be the dispositive question: did the scratches happen when the guitar was in the OP's possession or not?

[ThermiteTermite]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

And let's not bash people who don't post photos. 1) He may not have any. and 2) It IS a hassle to post them here - for many of us. You won't see any from me for that reason. I did it once for a guitar I had for sale and it'll take that much for me to go through that again. I am always amazed at how easy some of you seem to find the process, because it doesn't echo my one experience..

the OP clearly states that he has seen the photos in post #19 and post #44 so point 1) no longer needs to be brought up in defense of his assertions.

[Creekside Guitar]

I have a 00-17A that has swirls on the top. It is quite common for these guitars to have them. Also every sunburst guitar I own has them as well. They really are a non factor to me and should be to anyone who plays for a living.

These guitars are meant to played and used, not hung on a wall and kept in pristine condition. Anyone that has any experience with acoustic guitars knows these darker finish guitars will always have and show swirls. You can't play them without this happening.

The 00-17A is a fantastic guitar, by far the lightest build Martin is currently making. I think the issue people have with swirl marks is they are too focused on the value of the guitar. I get that these are expensive guitars but they are still just guitars, meant to played and enjoyed for a lifetime.