"Return Denied" on a trial guitar... any guidance?

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Not trying to fight but I have to say I find a 50% return rate stunningly high. Is that considered an acceptable norm these days?

hunter

I think it all depends. It proabably isn't the norm.

Often, I was looking at previously owned guitars that are not so common: a Bourgeois OM with particular woods, a Greven 00, and a 1971 Martin 12-20. And there was a B stock Guild 12 string. And there was a new Waterloo, which I returned because the neck shape made my hand cramp (this was early in the Waterloo history, and there were none available within 400 miles of my home at the time I was ready to try one).

Don't know what you were assuming that resulted in you feeling stunned....

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

If in his shoes I would probably hire a paralegal to draft a letter from a local law office within jurisdiction of the transaction.

practicing law without a license?

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Gmountain

practicing law without a license?

It's not illegal for a paralegal to be hired without going through an attorney for the purpose of writing a letter on your behalf to express a proposed compromise/settlement of a matter. If you know the terms you wish to propose and can hire a paralegal to state those terms in language that follows legal protocol, you can save yourself a lot of money by going down this path. I have done this on a few occasions.

See:
https://myparalegalplace.com/the-typ...e-and-prepare/

If the other party rejects your offer then if you want to pursue further it would be time to hire an attorney and explore options.

Alternatively, OP could do what most people do. Hire an attorney at the beginning of the process, pay them their exorbitant retainer fees and be billed at double or triple the hourly rate of a paralegal only to have the
compromise letter drafted by the attorney's paralegal.

[The Kid!]

I get that companies make guitars with delicate satin or French polish finishes. They can really add to the sound of a guitar, and a buyer should understand the risk of playing a guitar with such a finish.

I hate to say it, but the seller / shop owner should know this too! Why would a business owner send a guitar like that out for a trial with a return policy, and how does he know for certain that those marks weren't made by someone trying that guitar out before he sent it out on trial?

Not trying to jump on the shop owner, but that might be a guitar that you'd have to insist on only in-store playing in silk pajamas with no buttons or zippers. I definitely wouldn't have let that guitar go out on trial.

Maybe the buyer didn't know just how delicate the finish was, but if it can't be buffed out, then the guitar can't be sold as new. Maybe an alternative would be the buyer paying the difference of what the shop owner would have to sell the guitar for the discounted (B stock / Blem) rate.

The same micro scratch might be no big deal to one customer and a HUGE deal to another. Some people buy vintage player grade guitars with play wear, some buy relic'd guitars with "fake mojo," and some won't even consider a guitar that isn't pure as the driven snow.

I view guitars as tools. Tools to make a living with. I'm not concerned with play wear as long as its reflected in the price.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not cool with damage or bad repair jobs, but some micro scratches wouldn't bother me too much as long as I was paying a B stock or blem price.

If the guitar is non returnable, the buyer would have to disclose any scratches in addition to most likely taking a hit on the used market. It's a tough position to be in, but micro scratches on a guitar that he's not keeping are going to be far less of a big deal to him than they are to a dealer that has to try to sell the guitar that he can no longer sell as new.

For anybody getting mad at the shop owner for having an issue, ask yourself if it would be an issue you were the shop owner.

[ancient tones]

Danger. Long coffee ramble....[emoji6]

I'm amazed at the number of "mint" guitars for sale on this forum. I know if I play a guitar for a few weeks that no matter how careful I am, some blemish will mysteriously appear. If I ordered a guitar to try, it would go right back in the case, after a couple of strums as soon as I decided against it. I'm not much for new or mint guitars anyway as I take them out to play away from my couch.

If the seller in this case was Jon or Maury, would people still be piling on after hearing one side of the story.?

I wonder, did the OP buy the guitar in question with the intent to own it, or was he just planning to take it for a test drive from the start?

I would not order a new guitar online unless I was 99% sure that is the one I wanted.

Some of this in general is forum mentality. Read Jon Garon's FAQ response to "is there a difference between models of the same make". IMO, it's absurd to try numerous new guitars when buying online.

Buy used if you want to try numerous guitars. And know you will be plus or minus a couple hundred bucks on each deal.

I just bought a new guitar and promptly lost $600 on the resell because of this old fart not wanting to adapt to the new Martin neck. I wanted to keep the guitar so bad, but darn, the neck is the interface with a guitar. New Martin necks is another rant.

What is with expecting to pay 60% of list and then expecting the dealer to take back a guitar with your blemish on it?

I can see expecting structural integrity in a guitar purchase. What is this about obsessing about things that only you can see at a certain angle and a certain lighting?

I like what Marie Kondo says, if it brings you joy keep it, if not ditch it.

I predict the OPs situation will work out fine without attorneys and the law getting involved.

I understand and obsess about great guitars myself, but gosh what a "first world" problem, dings on a guitar?? How good of players would we all be if we coaxed tone out of our one and only cheapest guitar, instead of reading about the latest greatest gear from Martin and Taylor et.al. and then discussing it.

[Paddy1951]

Originally Posted by JakeStone

IMO, This is 100% the dealer's problem not buyers.



If they offer a trial period then they run the risk of "minor" signs of play/use. It's no different than a guitar hanging in store.



Not to mention the OP bought 1 of the guitars. So it's not like they returned both. This is BS on the stores part.



If the item is in "the store's possession" and you have proof of delivery? Call CC company and dispute the charge. They'll sort it out in your favor.

To think this situation is no different than the floor model in the dealer's store getting scratched fails to recognize one very important part of the equation.

SCALE.

A dealer can absorb the hit of having to discount a floor model every so often. To expect a dealer to have to do that regularly, with multiple sales, is not reasonable.

Most of you that have taken the OP's side on this, but you are missing information, yet still assuming the dealer is wrong.

Who is the dealer?

What is the WRITTEN policy as to online purchases?

What DOES the guitar look like now?

If the dealer took it back and then sold it to you, would you find the condition of the guitar to be "new" and satisfactory?


I don't think any of us are really in a position to judge. Especially, minus some very critical information.

[der Geist]

This dealer is being very foolish IMO. I have been in retail since the early 80’s and i can’t imagine handling a problem in this manner. Has this retailer never heard og Girard’s law of 250? The OP purchased a high end guitar from them. Chances are the OP will be purchasing more in the future. Not from this dealer though no matter what they do at this point. If the scratches are so small that you need a hi res camera to see them then I think that the dealer is being ridiculously petty. Are they going to lose the cost of the entire guitar over marks that you can’t see with the naked eye? I think not. I do not know the exact cost of the guitar in question but i am more than sure that they could discount it 50% off list disclosing the micro scratches and still not take a financial loss. Maybe break even at worst. They just sold the OP a very expensive guitar so sometimes a break even is a win. Also, he will make the OP happy which will result in possible future sales and instead of a 10 page rant they might be the subject of a NGD praise and some positive free advertising. A guitar with micro marks at or near dealer cost will be quickly snatched up by a savvy buyer as well and they will have another happy buyer with more positive feedback and future sales. This kind of penny wise, pound foolish thinking is one reason why so many retailers are struggling nowdays.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I think it all depends. It proabably isn't the norm.

Often, I was looking at previously owned guitars that are not so common: a Bourgeois OM with particular woods, a Greven 00, and a 1971 Martin 12-20. And there was a B stock Guild 12 string. And there was a new Waterloo, which I returned because the neck shape made my hand cramp (this was early in the Waterloo history, and there were none available within 400 miles of my home at the time I was ready to try one).

Don't know what you were assuming that resulted in you feeling stunned....

I almost never return stuff if it isn't outright defective. And that is a small number of items. But my experience apparently is an outlier:

https://www.shopify.com/enterprise/ecommerce-returns

A quick search pulled this up. I didn't vet the source but according to the article:

"Aggregate data — often attributed to Forrester and reported by The WSJ as well as Star Business Journal — places brick-and-mortar return rates around 8-10%; online it’s more than double that at 20%. During the ecommerce marketing holidays, returns surge to 30% or even as high as 50% for 'expensive' products."

Just another rapidly expanding trend I apparently missed out on. Ecommerce returns almost doubled in the last 5 years. I guess it is in the culture now.

hunter

[Dronfield]

Originally Posted by der Geist

This dealer is being very foolish IMO. I have been in retail since the early 80’s and i can’t imagine handling a problem in this manner. Has this retailer never heard og Girard’s law of 250? The OP purchased a high end guitar from them. Chances are the OP will be purchasing more in the future. Not from this dealer though no matter what they do at this point. If the scratches are so small that you need a hi res camera to see them then I think that the dealer is being ridiculously petty. Are they going to lose the cost of the entire guitar over marks that you can’t see with the naked eye? I think not. I do not know the exact cost of the guitar in question but i am more than sure that they could discount it 50% off list disclosing the micro scratches and still not take a financial loss. Maybe break even at worst. They just sold the OP a very expensive guitar so sometimes a break even is a win. Also, he will make the OP happy which will result in possible future sales and instead of a 10 page rant they might be the subject of a NGD praise and some positive free advertising. A guitar with micro marks at or near dealer cost will be quickly snatched up by a savvy buyer as well and they will have another happy buyer with more positive feedback and future sales. This kind of penny wise, pound foolish thinking is one reason why so many retailers are struggling nowdays.

Hi

Without rereading the whole thread, i thought the OP was ordered one high end model (that is being returned) and a lower end model (that is being kept)?

Apologies if i have misunderstood the position here.

Rich

[ThermiteTermite]

Originally Posted by der Geist

This dealer is being very foolish IMO. I have been in retail since the early 80’s and i can’t imagine handling a problem in this manner. Has this retailer never heard og Girard’s law of 250? The OP purchased a high end guitar from them.

....... correction, he purchased then returned one high end guitar, the one he didn't return was a cheapie. This is an increasing trend on line with high end retail items.............

Chances are the OP will be purchasing more in the future. Not from this dealer though no matter what they do at this point. If the scratches are so small that you need a hi res camera to see them then I think that the dealer is being ridiculously petty.

........who says the scratches are small? oh, the one who probably made the scratches and stands to lose money over them and has images of the scratches that he will not disclose.....................

Are they going to lose the cost of the entire guitar over marks that you can’t see with the naked eye?

.......once again, the person who probably made the scratches, will not show his images of the scratches, and has a financial interest in the size of the scratches that he is telling us are small.................

I think not. I do not know the exact cost of the guitar in question but i am more than sure that they could discount it 50% off list disclosing the micro scratches

.....'micro' according to one interested party who will not even disclose a key piece of evidence he possesses for objective evaluation..............

and still not take a financial loss. Maybe break even at worst. They just sold the OP a very expensive guitar

.......... the one he is trying to return? The one he kept was a cheapie that he turned around and sold............

so sometimes a break even is a win. Also, he will make the OP happy which will result in possible future sales and instead of a 10 page rant they might be the subject of a NGD praise and some positive free advertising. A guitar with micro marks

......micro marks? I would not assume the marks are small based on unsupported assertions from an interested party..........

at or near dealer cost will be quickly snatched up by a savvy buyer as well and they will have another happy buyer with more positive feedback and future sales. This kind of penny wise, pound foolish thinking is one reason why so many retailers are struggling nowdays.

I think the bottom line is that an unsupported assertion from one interested party is not enough to go on. I think the scratches are probably small but the facts that the OP will not show images and that he bought two instruments, kept one and sold it, and returned the expensive one, make me hesitate to take his side in any part of this dispute.

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

It's not illegal for a paralegal to be hired without going through an attorney for the purpose of writing a letter on your behalf to express a proposed compromise/settlement of a matter. If you know the terms you wish to propose and can hire a paralegal to state those terms in language that follows legal protocol, you can save yourself a lot of money by going down this path. I have done this on a few occasions.

See:
https://myparalegalplace.com/the-typ...e-and-prepare/

If the other party rejects your offer then if you want to pursue further it would be time to hire an attorney and explore options.

Alternatively, OP could do what most people do. Hire an attorney at the beginning of the process, pay them their exorbitant retainer fees and be billed at double or triple the hourly rate of a paralegal only to have the
compromise letter drafted by the attorney's paralegal.

I know what paralegals do. But you said hire a paralegal to write a letter from a law office.

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by Dronfield

Hi

Without rereading the whole thread, i thought the OP was ordered one high end model (that is being returned) and a lower end model (that is being kept)?

Apologies if i have misunderstood the position here.

Rich

He sold the cheap one to a student right away.

[Sillyak]

Originally Posted by zhunter

I almost never return stuff if it isn't outright defective. And that is a small number of items. But my experience apparently is an outlier:

https://www.shopify.com/enterprise/ecommerce-returns

A quick search pulled this up. I didn't vet the source but according to the article:

"Aggregate data — often attributed to Forrester and reported by The WSJ as well as Star Business Journal — places brick-and-mortar return rates around 8-10%; online it’s more than double that at 20%. During the ecommerce marketing holidays, returns surge to 30% or even as high as 50% for 'expensive' products."

Just another rapidly expanding trend I apparently missed out on. Ecommerce returns almost doubled in the last 5 years. I guess it is in the culture now.

hunter

That is crazy! How much does this add to the price of products??

I would be willing to pay less for a no return option in my general shopping, both online and bricks and mortar. I don't return anything, unless it is defective. I think the only thing I have returned in the last 10 years was a rifle scope that had a shifting zero with magnification change (defective.)

I read an article where a guy was buying a new high end pair of binos. He bought all the top offerings from Zeiss, Swarovski and Leica at Cabelas because they would let him return all but the one he wanted after 30 days. After a month of use they would probably have to sell the returns as demos.

How much extra have I paid over the years subsidizing these return policies? One could say these policies lead to more sales = more profit, which is true, but it has a cost and that cost is invariably made up for in the price.

[Texsunburst59]

THIS is why I only buy in person.

I personally don't think it's right for anyone to order several guitars and then pick the best of the bunch and send the rest back.

This is not fair at all the the guitar shop who sent you the guitars.

It's partially the fault of the guitar shop for agreeing to this arrangement to begin with,but I put most of this on the buyer.

This should have been the buyer's responsibility to make sure he understood the details for this so called "trial period" with the guitars.

If there's any small scratches of dents on the guitar at all, then the guitar belongs to the buyer.

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by Texsunburst59

THIS is why I only buy in person.

I personally don't think it's right for anyone to order several guitars and then pick the best of the bunch and send the rest back.

This is not fair at all the the guitar shop who sent you the guitars.

It's partially the fault of the guitar shop for agreeing to this arrangement to begin with,but I put most of this on the buyer.

This should have been the buyer's responsibility to make sure he understood the details for this so called "trial period" with the guitars.

If there's any small scratches of dents on the guitar at all, then the guitar belongs to the buyer.

I also buy in person. But it only cost me around $100 and a long day to get to a store with a large inventory. I imagine some players would need an airline ticket or a couple of days and hotel expenses to accomplish the same thing.

I'm not sure there is a big difference between somebody trying out a guitar at home and a bunch of people trying it out in the store. As long as the store expenses are covered it seems like a win-win.

I agree that the details of the trial period should have been made clear ahead of time. I'm sure everyone who reads this will be sure to do that in the future.

I am particular about taking care of my instruments. My Martin has quite a few miles on it and no dents. So I'm fussy, but I can't say I would care even a little about a micro-scratch. But that's just me.

Something fishy here. If you can't play the guitar at home the same way anyone could play it in the store you'd be crazy to do a trial period.

To order 5 D-18's, pick the best and send the rest back seems ridiculous (and, I suspect, something that no vendor would agree to). But the normal way to buy a guitar is to compare a few and pick the one you like. Seems like that might include a trial of a couple guitars and sending one back.

A student model and a high end Martin does get to sounding a little strange in that regard.