cd (part studio/part home)

[shawlie]

Ever since I learned a C chord with a few words to it, I wanted to make a cd (well, a tape or record back then) - I always thought it'd be fun to do. Then I learned a few other chords and got overwhelmed...

But still - I enjoy making up songs and would like to maybe plan a very gradual approach to recording something like a short-ish cd (maybe 7 to 10 songs I like best, probably not much more than half hour or so). Seeing as it would only be pretty much for me and some friends, I am thinking of ways to do it cheap as possible.

It is just that I know that as soon as I go somewhere, I will not play very good as nerves get to me, even at home recording. So I think if I could just focus on maybe two songs per time, go in for an hour and play them each maybe 20 minutes long, with various repetitions of some parts. And then at home I could see what to make of it - keep what went ok, cut/paste some notes I did not like and use the better takes in those places.

And then have Martha sing to that - four or five times the next time in the studio (while trying two more songs on guitar) and using what I liked from her vocals.

Would editing wav files from a studio be ok to do on my computer - would it still all have good sound quality, and what do kind of questions do you have to ask (like sample rate or bit rate and how to export things in the same format)? Things like volume levels - should you even touch the software mixer, or just turn up your speakers? I would not want to go through it all only to see it is ruined by my computer and does not sound like it should. And I don't know if my software can take the kind of files a studio would make - I know I have to ask the places themselves... but to seem a little less foolish, I'd rather ask here first for tips. Open a file - cut and paste where needed - then save the file - that is what my plan is.

And things like piano - could I play the keyboard here til I got it ok (and save it on the keyboard) and then they could record it on their computer? Would than be any better than if I recorded it myself and sent them the file (and then they mixed it)?

Maybe a dumb idea - should walk in and do it perfect in one take, but it will never happen. So perhaps a waste of time and money, but would like to try it once in my life - am really hoping for advice.

[moon]

To mix/master you'll need good monitoring equipment so you can really hear what's going on. You'll need a decent audio interface and at the very least some studio-quality headphones. Really you ought to be doing the mixing on monitors not headphones - proper studio monitors in a treated room.

Once you've got all that, all you need are a couple of decent mics to be able to do all the tracking at home as well as mixing/mastering. There would be no problem taking files home from a pro studio though.

I assume the keyboard is a midi keyboard? A midi file can be played on any computer, although not every machine will have the same voices available. Two different sample libraries of the same instrument will not respond in quite the same way to the same midi velocities etc and so, for pro audio use, I wouldn't recommend you pass midi files around. It might sound OK - or it might not.

[shawlie]

Thanks for the information. What you mention is is kind of the whole problem - I don't have any of that kind of stuff. A pair of fairly expensive Koss headphones (which to me sound more or less like my favorite ear-buds, which were probably 90 euro cheaper...) more or less rounds out my "studio".

I have three very small rooms - all in use - and can't do much with them. With a lot of work I could possibly try to alter the smallest of the rooms - but it's only (roughly) 2 x 1.6 meters, not really a lot of space. And the cost of all that is just too much.

There's a local place I saw that seems pretty cheap, I will ask for some sound samples and if my plan is something they'd be willing to help out with - getting some raw wav files for me to further mess with and then they could master it. Maybe even mix it, then too - I just don't want to waste their time with fixing my mistakes, I'd rather first try to see what I can do with some higher quality recordings. I suppose you cant really "break" anything by trying it, at any rate.

And the keybaord - it is midi, but I've never used it that way. You can record stuff on it and then I plug it into my ZoomH2 and record it as a wav file. It has a lot of noise, but maybe that's my Zoom, cables, mains, etc. Maybe it'd be different in a studio?

But it's rather old - bought it new in 1997, maybe not the best thing to use. Or maybe the midi idea is worth trying - hit or miss, I understand from your advice, but as it's old, maybe other people would have more advanced voices? Mine doesn't sound too good, maybe it would actually be an improvement..?

Thanks again for the reply, I will have to ask some questions and see what they say.

[moon]

There's a saying: an amateur practices until he sometimes gets it right; a professional practices until he can never get it wrong. I'm absolutely certain that, if you put the work in, you'll be able to record some great music. A huge part of music is just learning a motor skill, apart from any ideas about art or talent, and that just takes time and patience. Anyone who puts the hours in can do this. After that, the art part, you just have to be yourself.

If you've got a sound you really like on the keyboard, no problem - just record that. The studio can advise you what they want, 44.1k, 48k or etc.

Synthesizer type sounds will probably sound OK but, if you're adding in "live" instruments like pianos or string sections, modern samplers will be much, much better. Here's an upright bass from Kontakt. Not bad...

If you take in a midi file you'll need to allow some time to get it sounding just right. Can you hear the "slap" in the upright bass sample clip? Higher velocities are triggering samples with the slappy sound, lower velocities trigger a softer sound. That's the kind of thing you might need to fiddle with to get the best sound out of a virtual instrument.

Incidentally, that's one of the samples you get with the free Kontakt player. Worth checking out.

[CrankyChris]

Well.... There's a lot of stuff in there.

If you're interested in really learning how to record, mix, etc I'd suggest 2 paths for you. 1 is just to pay a commercial studio to record 2 or 3 songs...from top to bottom. Watch how the engineer positions mics, how he runs the session, how he listen to each part, how he go about the process of mixing. AND LEARN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. Or - spend $500 on an inexpensive studio setup and a couple of books and ...baptism by fire. Either way - it's going to be a learning process.

I understand your ideas about spending 20 minutes here and 20 minutes there and tracing piano at home, etc..... and generally saving money. The truth is - it just doesn't work like that. It might take the engineer an hour to prepare the tacks to burn to CDs just so you can take home to edit. And then you'll get the format wrong - and you'll have to repeat the process (and pay for again). And very few studios are interested in booking a client for a 1 or 2 hour session ONLY. And jacking around with sending back and forth midi files on a track by track basis. It can be more of a pain to them.

Good luck. There's a lot to know and it can be fun if you really want to learn it.

[shawlie]

Originally Posted by moon

There's a saying: an amateur practices until he sometimes gets it right; a professional practices until he can never get it wrong. I'm absolutely certain that, if you put the work in, you'll be able to record some great music. A huge part of music is just learning a motor skill, apart from any ideas about art or talent, and that just takes time and patience. Anyone who puts the hours in can do this. After that, the art part, you just have to be yourself.

If you've got a sound you really like on the keyboard, no problem - just record that. The studio can advise you what they want, 44.1k, 48k or etc.

Synthesizer type sounds will probably sound OK but, if you're adding in "live" instruments like pianos or string sections, modern samplers will be much, much better. Here's an upright bass from Kontakt. Not bad...

If you take in a midi file you'll need to allow some time to get it sounding just right. Can you hear the "slap" in the upright bass sample clip? Higher velocities are triggering samples with the slappy sound, lower velocities trigger a softer sound. That's the kind of thing you might need to fiddle with to get the best sound out of a virtual instrument.

Incidentally, that's one of the samples you get with the free Kontakt player. Worth checking out.

Thanks for the information - the sample wouldn't open for me, but will look up the site on the internet. I have used a few samples sometimes - a friend of ours was in a bad car accident once and can't play guitar anymore. He still loves music, so makes up stuff with Native instruments (I think that's what it is). Sounds really good - amazing what you can do these days. The "upright bass" on my keyboard sounds like... a keyboard.

Thinking of just using piano sound, so will have to think about it - my keyboard is not very convincing, perhaps they could give advice, see what they suggest (if I do decide to go on with it). I have now asked a few places for infomation and will see. Though the more I think about it, the less I dare to do it.

And true - I should practice more, I fully admit. Just sometimes seems not too much incentive. So I thought this would be also good for that. Instead of making up a song, play it maybe two or three days and then never play it again - I could spend a month or so with one or two and make them better. I don't know - have to look at what I'm doing (and not doing) and why a little better, I geuss.

But thanks again - I appreciate your posts and thanks for your time!

[moon]

Here's a decent piano sample in .gig format (maestro concert grand). The linuxsampler player runs on windows and mac as well as linux. You can also make up your own sampled instruments with the bundled gigedit.

PS: the upright bass clip was in ogg format, a kind of open source alternative to mp3. If you're on windows you might need to download a codec from somewhere to play ogg files.

[shawlie]

Originally Posted by CrankyChris

Well.... There's a lot of stuff in there.

If you're interested in really learning how to record, mix, etc I'd suggest 2 paths for you. 1 is just to pay a commercial studio to record 2 or 3 songs...from top to bottom. Watch how the engineer positions mics, how he runs the session, how he listen to each part, how he go about the process of mixing. AND LEARN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. Or - spend $500 on an inexpensive studio setup and a couple of books and ...baptism by fire. Either way - it's going to be a learning process.

I understand your ideas about spending 20 minutes here and 20 minutes there and tracing piano at home, etc..... and generally saving money. The truth is - it just doesn't work like that. It might take the engineer an hour to prepare the tacks to burn to CDs just so you can take home to edit. And then you'll get the format wrong - and you'll have to repeat the process (and pay for again). And very few studios are interested in booking a client for a 1 or 2 hour session ONLY. And jacking around with sending back and forth midi files on a track by track basis. It can be more of a pain to them.

Good luck. There's a lot to know and it can be fun if you really want to learn it.

Thanks for the post - maybe it is better to think it all over a little more, after reading your advice. I did record one song once, in a semi-pro studio (he seemed to have good stuff, just maybe not much experience doing it all yet). Did learn some things, and it was quite an experience at any rate.

It's just you read so often - here and elsewhere - that "room treatment" is maybe the most important thing. And I really don't have a room to "treat". I'm just wary that if I got a better set-up than my modest ZoomH2, it'd still sound like my bedroom (just with a better mic).

And I didn't mean just 20 minutes, to be clear - it is more that I'd like to sit down and go through a few songs as often as I want (with some repetitions of certain parts, to be on the safe side) - and do that for an hour. Maybe two or three songs, with various takes. Then I could just use the wav files at home, to edit when needed.

Like when I did that one song - I was nervous and really practiced it quite a bit before we went, so as to be ready. First take was fairly ok, second was slightly more ok, and that was that.

There were maybe a few parts in the first take I liked better, and would have loved the flexibilty of being able to use both. And do some of the parts a few times, see if they were better. But it wasn't going to go like that.

The singer could cut and paste all she wanted, but I had to get it right in one take... but I only got it "ok", with plenty in it to bother me forever.

And true, the midi idea is maybe to think about more. As I said, I just play it and record on the keyboard - then record it on my Zoom and copy to computer - so it's just a wav file. Did not think of using midi until it was mentioned in the one post. I just don't see the need to actually be in the studio to play it - I was just thinking of doing it at home, take the keyboard to the studio and they could hook it up to their recording gear.

I appreciate your comments and they certainly make me think. It is maybe a little amateur-like, my thinking - I will think more about it all, and maybe spend more time looking at other options.

[shawlie]

Originally Posted by moon

Here's a decent piano sample in .gig format (maestro concert grand). The linuxsampler player runs on windows and mac as well as linux. You can also make up your own sampled instruments with the bundled gigedit.

PS: the upright bass clip was in ogg format, a kind of open source alternative to mp3. If you're on windows you might need to download a codec from somewhere to play ogg files.

Might be missing it - but the link to the piano isn't working... I get a dead-link from that page where the concert grand is (a zip file, if that's the one you mean?). I'll look a bit more, though.

I do use windows - had a converter but only a free temporary one. It didn't work without internet, but now I have internet on this computer, so will try to download another one. Or pay for one if they are handy, of course.

[moon]

This should work: Maestro Concert Grand

[CrankyChris]

Originally Posted by shawlie

It's just you read so often - here and elsewhere - that "room treatment" is maybe the most important thing. And I really don't have a room to "treat". I'm just wary that if I got a better set-up than my modest ZoomH2, it'd still sound like my bedroom (just with a better mic).

I recorded 90% of the E.P. linked below in a bedroom.

http://crankychris.com/tunes.cfm

I did have good room treatment (although sometimes the importance of this is overstated IMO), a good mic or 2, good mic pre and converters. BUT the most important tool in my arsenal was experience. I've recorded in a lot of studios. I even had my own project studio at one time. I feel like I could get good results with an SM57. It's a journey not a destination. You just have to work at it and learn and improve over time.

I think maybe the best thing you might ask yourself is: How good do you want it to be? If you say aw shucks - go with the zoom. If you say I want it to be good or better, etc look into a pro studio. For the $ I've spent on studio equipment, I could have recorded many, many albums in a nice studio with pro musicians and engineers.

[flagstaffcharli]

Cranky Chris,

Listening on my laptop to the previews. Great stuff!