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  #16  
Old 12-01-2018, 09:27 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
The other Neumann that gets a lot of hate is the TLM103. That's another mic I really like. In fact...some of my best acoustic guitar recordings came about with a TLM103. Is it a U87? No! But that doesn't make it a bad mic.
On that other forum, the chief 103-hater is yours truly. But not because of what it does to or for acoustic guitars.

When Neumann rolled it out, they did in fact call it a "modern-sounding" U-87. Sound On Sound printed a review that reiterated that. Suspiciously close to verbatim. And voiceover studios discovered that they could truthfully say, "Yes, we have a Neumann," and they could do it on the cheap.

But the fact is that, for up-close spoken word, the TLM-103 is pretty lousy in my opinion. And more and more commercial studios buy them for that purpose all the time. And why not? When there's a glut on eBay they can be had for $600 or even less.

But this site isn't really about all that, so I'll give it a rest.
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2018, 10:45 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
On that other forum, the chief 103-hater is yours truly. But not because of what it does to or for acoustic guitars.

When Neumann rolled it out, they did in fact call it a "modern-sounding" U-87. Sound On Sound printed a review that reiterated that. Suspiciously close to verbatim. And voiceover studios discovered that they could truthfully say, "Yes, we have a Neumann," and they could do it on the cheap.

But the fact is that, for up-close spoken word, the TLM-103 is pretty lousy in my opinion. And more and more commercial studios buy them for that purpose all the time. And why not? When there's a glut on eBay they can be had for $600 or even less.

But this site isn't really about all that, so I'll give it a rest.
I hear you...It's definitely not a U87...but there is no way you're going to get a U87 sound without a transformer! And that's the whole TLM thing TransformerLess Microphone. So no one should have ever equated those 2 mics as similar...but they did. I guess the capsules are the same or similar (I forget if it's the same or "derived from"). The later being more marketing speak that means squat.

Honestly...a good ol' SM7b is killer on spoken word (and vocals...but shhhh! that's an industry secret). You just need a good pre to get the most out of it (like a Neve or API).

Though, those looking for a good U87 style mic should check out the Bock Audio iFet. It has 2 separate circuits in it & a switch to choose either an 87 or 47 signal path...and it's like $1500 less than a U87. A studio I work at has one & I absolutely love it on almost everything. I'd buy one, but I don't have to until I lose access to that one
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2018, 07:39 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Basically, when people recorded to tape, the knock on the KM84 was that it wasn't bright enough. You could get the brighter AKG C451 for less money.

So Neumann killed off the 84 and replaced it with the 184. They designed it to be brighter, and kept the cost down by eliminating the transformer. But they did it just in time for people to make the shift to digital, where people wanted warm, not bright. Oops.

All things being equal, I'd take the 84 over the 184, but they're not all that different. And all things aren't equal -- 84's are rare and pricy.
Well put! +1

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #19  
Old 12-03-2018, 11:36 AM
kathyson kathyson is offline
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For about the same price as a 184 you might want to consider a Josephson C-42. Best mic I've ever used on an acoustic.
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  #20  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:56 PM
DukeX DukeX is online now
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In that price range the Beyer MC 930 would also be a good choice.
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  #21  
Old 12-03-2018, 07:00 PM
GTR1960 GTR1960 is offline
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Beezneez can sell you a pair of Lulu KM84 FET mics for the price of 1 Neumann KM84. They’re not an exact clone but,it seems it’s so close, that owners of KM84s are happy with them.
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  #22  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:06 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
On that other forum, the chief 103-hater is yours truly. But not because of what it does to or for acoustic guitars.

When Neumann rolled it out, they did in fact call it a "modern-sounding" U-87. Sound On Sound printed a review that reiterated that. Suspiciously close to verbatim. And voiceover studios discovered that they could truthfully say, "Yes, we have a Neumann," and they could do it on the cheap.

But the fact is that, for up-close spoken word, the TLM-103 is pretty lousy in my opinion. And more and more commercial studios buy them for that purpose all the time. And why not? When there's a glut on eBay they can be had for $600 or even less.

But this site isn't really about all that, so I'll give it a rest.
TLM103s do sound great on acoustic guitar, and they are also good for overhead drum mics. I mic drum kits all day long Glynn Johns style with TLM103s combined with the other MOST HATED Neumann microphone, the M147, in front of the kick drum right where the air dies off. I've never gotten a bad sound with this trio. They just to work well together.
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  #23  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:41 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Basically, when people recorded to tape, the knock on the KM84 was that it wasn't bright enough. You could get the brighter AKG C451 for less money.

So Neumann killed off the 84 and replaced it with the 184. They designed it to be brighter, and kept the cost down by eliminating the transformer. But they did it just in time for people to make the shift to digital, where people wanted warm, not bright. Oops.

All things being equal, I'd take the 84 over the 184, but they're not all that different. And all things aren't equal -- 84's are rare and pricy.
I honestly think the big difference between the 84 & 184 comes down to simple circuitry. The 84 had a transformer. The 184 is transformerless. Transformers add "weight" to sound...which is a nice way of saying "non-linearity". If you use the right preamp, you can add a lot of that back in to the 184...at least in my experience.

And you bring up the 451...which might be a better all around guitar mic anyway
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  #24  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:17 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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I've heard transformered and transformerless mics over the years and in the old days, that was basically true.

I've also been fooled by transformerless mics; thinking there must be a transformer in there. As such, I can't agree to your idea.

The TLM 67 is one such mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #25  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:54 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
I've heard transformered and transformerless mics over the years and in the old days, that was basically true.

I've also been fooled by transformerless mics; thinking there must be a transformer in there. As such, I can't agree to your idea.

The TLM 67 is one such mic.
In the day job, I do a lot of stuff where I have to mix a VO with music and fx. One if the "tells" of a transformerless mic is that a VO recorded on one will tend to be less intelligible -- to vanish -- in a dense, loud mix. One exception is the transformerless Sennheiser 416, but I suspect that's because the 416 isn't terribly clean. I'm not sure I've ever mixed a VO done on a TLM67, so I can't comment on that.

That same tell works in reverse, too. I have a recurring classical gig where most of their mics are transformerless. Use a spot mic (like a KM84) with a transformer in it and it'll stick out too much, while a similar transformerless mic (like a 184) will blend in much better.
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  #26  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:44 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Well, now you're in the field of wheat in which the preamp you're using comes into play.

BTW, If you look at the presence curve of the MKH416, it's self-explanatory. Don't try to use it while booming talent walking through rough underbrush or across any kind of pavement with the slightest amount of small pebbles, or over crushed rock.

Not pretty.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #27  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:29 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
In the day job, I do a lot of stuff where I have to mix a VO with music and fx. One if the "tells" of a transformerless mic is that a VO recorded on one will tend to be less intelligible -- to vanish -- in a dense, loud mix. One exception is the transformerless Sennheiser 416, but I suspect that's because the 416 isn't terribly clean. I'm not sure I've ever mixed a VO done on a TLM67, so I can't comment on that.

That same tell works in reverse, too. I have a recurring classical gig where most of their mics are transformerless. Use a spot mic (like a KM84) with a transformer in it and it'll stick out too much, while a similar transformerless mic (like a 184) will blend in much better.
Off topic for sure but just noticed you work at Radio Active. I'm in walking distance to ya. Our facilities at Magnolia and Lankeshim
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  #28  
Old 12-05-2018, 01:54 PM
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Off topic for sure but just noticed you work at Radio Active. I'm in walking distance to ya. Our facilities at Magnolia and Lankeshim
Two ships passing in the night ----oh wait !! what forum is this again ?
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  #29  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:51 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Off topic for sure but just noticed you work at Radio Active. I'm in walking distance to ya. Our facilities at Magnolia and Lankeshim
The only people around there who walk are the jaywalking dimwits in front of EAT.
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  #30  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:21 PM
RRuskin RRuskin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Basically, when people recorded to tape, the knock on the KM84 was that it wasn't bright enough. You could get the brighter AKG C451 for less money.

So Neumann killed off the 84 and replaced it with the 184. They designed it to be brighter, and kept the cost down by eliminating the transformer. But they did it just in time for people to make the shift to digital, where people wanted warm, not bright. Oops.

All things being equal, I'd take the 84 over the 184, but they're not all that different. And all things aren't equal -- 84's are rare and pricy.
They also kept the cost down by not making it a "system mic" as different capsules cannot be swapped on and off the barrel like the km84. One had to pay more for the km140 to get that feature.
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