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  #16  
Old 08-10-2013, 06:48 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post

Why would you want to learn something that you haven't heard and enjoyed? That's something I don't get (in the age of recorded music).
With that kind of thinking we will only be listening music from 1920 till now
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  #17  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:16 AM
AX17609 AX17609 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paikon View Post
With that kind of thinking we will only be listening music from 1920 till now
...and all the orchestras in the world would be out of business.
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  #18  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:21 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Originally Posted by Paikon View Post
With that kind of thinking we will only be listening music from 1920 till now
Really? Is it only possible to listen to music that was composed from 1920 onwards?

Really???
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:23 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Originally Posted by AX17609 View Post
...and all the orchestras in the world would be out of business.
Do you think modern orchestral players (that can hear) don't listen to recordings of the music they are learning?

Find me one example and I'll send you one of my guitars.
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  #20  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:28 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Some of this seems to be arguing about nothing. If I learn music from the dots the first thing I have to do is memorise it. The way I memorise it is to learn it by ear, from my own playing when reading it from notation. I have no intention of performing anything whilst reading dots. You have to be looking up to dodge the bottles.

Orchestral players cover a wide repertoire and aren't expected to play everything from memory but often soloists dont read from the dots. They memorise the stuff and I bet what they memorise is the sound. Not what they do with their hands but the sound the music makes.
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  #21  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:30 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post
Really? Is it only possible to listen to music that was composed from 1920 onwards?

Really???
we have recordings of music from 1920s ...probably a little earlier
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  #22  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:33 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
Some of this seems to be arguing about nothing.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
If I learn music from the dots the first thing I have to do is memorise it. The way I memorise it is to learn it by ear, from my own playing when reading it from notation. I have no intention of performing anything whilst reading dots.
Agreed. If there is no way of hearing a recording first, then the ear has to be fully aware of what you are doing when reading the dot's or you are wasting your time.

Of course listening to good recordings first enhances this process tenfold (roughly).
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  #23  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:34 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikon View Post
we have recordings of music from 1920s ...probably a little earlier
And.......???
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  #24  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:38 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post



If there is no way of hearing a recording first, then the ear has to be fully aware of what you are doing when reading the dot's or you are wasting your time.

Of course listening to good recordings first enhances this process tenfold (roughly).
Thats what i ve said.
Since we dont know what was music sounding like before early 20th century ,when we invented recording, we shouldnt play it :P.
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  #25  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:47 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikon View Post
Thats what i ve said.
Since we dont know what was music sounding like before early 20th century ,when we invented recording, we shouldnt play it :P.
I suggest you read the point I made again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post

Why would you want to learn something that you haven't heard and enjoyed? That's something I don't get (in the age of recorded music).
This isn't the 18th Century.

And that is the point of this thread.

If some want to continue on without taking advantage of using their ear (by listening to recordings) to learn then that's up to them.

I wonder if infant Mozart's teachers wouldn't have encouraged him to listen to recordings (had the tech been available) (whilst they weren't playing to him)?
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  #26  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:54 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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"Do you think modern orchestral players (that can hear) don't listen to recordings of the music they are learning?"

do they ? why? dont they have a conductor to lead them?
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  #27  
Old 08-10-2013, 08:23 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomiPaldanius View Post

[much content snipped]

I've been teaching this skill to online students 1 year now and many have learned it and most of the students have changed their approach to learning totally. Some of them are becoming performing musicians. I taught 10 years with books and not even one of my students made it to the "professional" level. I would start everything from totally different perspective but I was a product of the system and I did not know that something better was out there. I cannot change the past and at least learned what is the important thing to do and the tabs died and ear training was born. I don't regret a single second the decision.

And out from the classical tradition I don't know even one single great performing guitar player who plays from tabs. And to be honest even in classical world the best performances I personally like come from ear training musicians. Joaquín Rodrigo has mentioned Paco De Lucia's performance of Aranjuez Concerto is his favorite. Paco did shortcuts but had an amazing rhythmic feel to it. Paco is ear player. Like Django Reinhardt was and all the other best guitar players out there.

If you have any questions, I am happy to help. I do this now as my profession. I am willing to help people at this forum to get more friendly towards ear training. It is nice to get people inspired because we are still at the early stages of the change.

And always music related forums it is nice to let the music do the talking to back up your opinions. I saw a Axis Of Awesome video posted somewhere and actually I did similar inspired by them.

Here is my video "60 songs with 4 chords".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1JWKjVboYk

Thanks for reading

Tomi Paldanius
Being a current student of Tomi's live weekly play by ear course, welcome to the forum Tomi!

It seems that a number of people in the general population (players and non-players alike), have the idea that being able to play by ear is a talent (i.e. "some gots it, some don't" as the myth goes) that only the lucky few can experience. It does seem there is enough evidence to the contrary (i.e. it is a learned skill that might initially come easier to some than others, but anyone who wants to, can learn it). Even Tomi admits it was a real struggle for him in the beginning. When you hear him now or watch one of his videos, it seems that he is a natural, so knowing how hard he worked certainly puts the skill within reach of the rest of us too.

I have always been sort of midway between reading and hearing in my approach to music - I can read standard notation but not sight read (i.e. not in real time as I play, as a highly skilled reader can). I can read charts easily. I can figure out music off of recordings, lead guitar parts, some chords if not too difficult and such. Years ago, I did figure out some Leo Kottke tunes by slowing my turntable way down since there were no TABS or notation available.

Currently, I play in a semi-formal jazz group (not my day job) and some solo fingerstyle acoustic stuff as the occasion arises. In the jazz group we play from lead sheet charts (Real Book, etc). I learned the skills to hold my own in that setting from Robert Conti's books and DVDs. My acoustic playing consists of either me arranging a tune on paper or getting the gist of a tune off a recording and playing that.

Now, over the past several weeks, I have been working to adapt Tomi's approach into my daily activities, and can readily see how that skill will ultimately free up my playing from struggling to memorize the music to literally being it (sounds new-agey, but as I begin to experience it for myself, I can't explain it any other way). I have a long way to go in developing the skill, but I am seeing early results enough to know I am finally on the right track. Tomi's course points us in the right direction, but it is up to us to develop it into a working skill set. I know of only one other resource that teaches a true "by ear" approach, and that one is largely for teaching blind people (http://musicfortheblind.com/). I wonder why this isn't the normal way to learn music, since ultimately it is a hearing art form.

Tony
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  #28  
Old 08-10-2013, 08:26 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Sorry for your early experiences. It really does not sound like that was a very good music school. Most classical musicians have a very good ear.

I don't see the need for doing a 180 and throwing out useful skills. Learning classical guitar music while deliberately avoiding reference to the written scores is a rather pointless way to go about it, almost futile for some of it.

A lot depends on the situation you are in and the type of music you are trying to play. Without the ability to read music, some music is for all practical purposes inaccessible to you. With other music and playing situations you are better off going by ear.

Don't throw things out, rather accumulate different approaches to learning and playing music.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 08-10-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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  #29  
Old 08-10-2013, 08:31 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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My violin/ piano teacher could sight read, identify every note in real time and write them down and she had a classical training .
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  #30  
Old 08-10-2013, 08:36 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Quote:
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do they ? why? dont they have a conductor to lead them?
I think you're completely missing my point, and I'm missing yours.
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