The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:43 AM
Darknodar123 Darknodar123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 3
Default Recording/Mixing for Fingerstyle? How?

Hello team

I bought some days ago an AKG P120 microphone and have it plugged in POD UX1 audio interface! The audio interface comes with a software but I was told to record dry first and then mix the whole thing, so no Noise Gates, Preamps and Compressors before! This is a dry recording through Reaper. Can this, through mixing (EQ, Compressor) have the same bass and attack many fingerstyle players, like my favorites Eiro Nareth , have?

Royals
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Cn...QPz48XiIftyDcb

I think it's not really bad, seem pretty happy about the quality and definitely better than having to record with my cell phone anymore! I have some D2 notes, kicks and snares there but you can tell they don't even sound bassy or full and bright. Should the dry recording differ in the first place or can magic happen through mixing?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:02 AM
jpmist jpmist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 550
Default

I'm no expert but I've been down the road of home recording for a while. Your test track sounds fine to me!

All I can offer is to get very familiar with how to use the EQ function which I assume Reaper surely has. The most common advice I've read is pull back the frequency around 200 mhz as that will take some of the muddyness an acoustic guitar recording can have. Then find the higher frequency to pull back some of your fingersqueeks and snaps.

Experiment a lot with mic placement and distance as a few inches north, south, east or west of pointing straight to the neck join can make a discernible difference.

I'm not familiar with Reaper, but I'd suggest a audio editor as a supplement to make quick edits and adjustments. Audacity is a free one for Mac/PCs and my Mac favorite is Amadeus Pro.

I think you're on the right track with getting a good dry recording first then tweaking it with eq and compression. It's all going to boil down to your taste and ears and I think you're off to a good start.
__________________
Larrivee OO-05, Larrivee OOV-03, Taylor 322ce, & a few Strats

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:50 PM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 807
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmist View Post
I'm not familiar with Reaper, but I'd suggest a audio editor as a supplement to make quick edits and adjustments. Audacity is a free one for Mac/PCs and my Mac favorite is Amadeus Pro.
I have used both Reaper and Audacity. Reaper, although low in cost, is a very highly-rated, full-featured DAW, and will do everything that Audacity can do and much more. IMO, bringing in another audio editor would greatly complicate things.

My suggestion to the OP is to stick with Reaper and learn its ins and outs.

BTW, you might want to move this to the Recording discussion area. You will likely get more response there.
__________________
Patrick

2012 Martin HD-28V
1984 Martin Shenandoah D-2832
2018 Gretsch G5420TG
Oscar Schmidt Autoharp, unknown vintage
ToneDexter
Bugera V22 Infinium
Yamaha THR10C
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-29-2020, 03:00 AM
Dirk_Z Dirk_Z is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 66
Default

Hi there,

there is only so much you can fix with mixing. It is better to get as close as possible to the sound you want in the recording stage.

My fast mix :-)
http://www.polyphon-recording.de/royals2.wav

Great playing by the way
Dirk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-29-2020, 07:52 AM
keith.rogers keith.rogers is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Texas
Posts: 538
Default

Good advice so far. I'd add that I hear more room in that recording that is helpful, though if you add enough verb/delay in the mix it will mask some of it. So, I would do some more treatment in that room, or closer micing, probably with more than one mic (which would mean a new interface).

Microphones do not hear the way people do. As suggested, you should experiment a *lot* with microphone placement, as well as possibly temper your style to suit what you hear in the recording, e.g., the physical percussive parts are a bit loud to my ear. And, sure, you can put a dynamic EQ or filtered compressor on just that, but it will have side effects, and if you don't, those dynamics will impact many of the rest of the results in mixing, because you'll have to deal with the transients as you are trying to boost the mix to a more "radio ready" level. The more you get right going in, the easier your job will be in the mixing.

I am not a fan of gates on acoustic guitar. The noise at the start and end can be edited out in the DAW. If you can't get your overall noise floor down to where you can let a fade out occur pretty naturally, that's something else to try to manage, either with moving equipment around, picking quieter locations or times, or closer micing.

Nice playing, keep doing that, and keep comparing your recordings to what you are trying to get to. That's how you'll figure out what to do next.
__________________
"I know in the morning that it's gonna be good, when I stick out my elbows and they don't bump wood." - Bill Kirchen
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-29-2020, 08:39 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 12,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknodar123 View Post
Hello team

I bought some days ago an AKG P120 microphone and have it plugged in POD UX1 audio interface! The audio interface comes with a software but I was told to record dry first and then mix the whole thing, so no Noise Gates, Preamps and Compressors before! This is a dry recording through Reaper. Can this, through mixing (EQ, Compressor) have the same bass and attack many fingerstyle players, like my favorites Eiro Nareth , have?

Royals
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Cn...QPz48XiIftyDcb

I think it's not really bad, seem pretty happy about the quality and definitely better than having to record with my cell phone anymore! I have some D2 notes, kicks and snares there but you can tell they don't even sound bassy or full and bright. Should the dry recording differ in the first place or can magic happen through mixing?
Some good advice so far
My thoughts:
Software: . No need to consider any additional mixing editing software other than Reaper it already has far more DAW capability than you will ever fully utilize.

Dry record : Yes and no.

Ideally you can get the recording you want through, playing technique, room treatment, mic placement, mic and preamp choice, (in that progressive order) and not have use and mixing processing in mixing .

But with the caveat that percussive style (I am assuming what you mean by "attack") you want to be aware that as you move the mic's closer and get more overall presence you increase the risk of those percussive transients creating (digital overs)
Which is why some professional recording engineers will sometimes opt for compression during recording for percussive guitar style. Just something to think about.

As noted there is a fair amount of room and self noise so seriously consider room treatment

Mixing:
Yes you can definitely enhance the dry recording with EQ and Comp FX when mixing.
To maintain and enhance the bass with EQ start with a High Pass filter and cut the low end 60 to 100 hz and below. And perhaps also a narrow Q,, 4 or 5 db cut, somewhere between 450 and 600 Hz

Experiment with a compressor set with a slow attack and medium or fast release and a touch of makeup gain (couple of db) Be aware this may also bring up the room/self noise so a noise gate or even third party noise suppression software like Izotope RX might be considered .
Also a touch of parallel reverb may get closer to the sound you are seeking Also consider an EQ before the parallel reverb, set with a high and low pass filters,,, the high set at 600Hz and the low at 8 kHz to 10kHz
__________________
" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...


KevWind at Soundcloud

Last edited by KevWind; 03-29-2020 at 08:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-29-2020, 12:00 PM
ChuckS's Avatar
ChuckS ChuckS is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 2,991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk_Z View Post
Hi there,

there is only so much you can fix with mixing. It is better to get as close as possible to the sound you want in the recording stage.

My fast mix :-)
http://www.polyphon-recording.de/royals2.wav

Great playing by the way
Dirk
It was nice that you provided an example after your mixing. I do home recording but I've got little experience mixing. It would be helpful for me, and maybe also the OP, if you could explain what you did to the original tracks to get the mix. Thanks.
__________________
Chuck

2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi
2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz
2015 Posch 13-fret 00 in Indian Rosewood and Adi
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-29-2020, 12:09 PM
ChuckS's Avatar
ChuckS ChuckS is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 2,991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknodar123 View Post
Hello team

I bought some days ago an AKG P120 microphone and have it plugged in POD UX1 audio interface! The audio interface comes with a software but I was told to record dry first and then mix the whole thing, so no Noise Gates, Preamps and Compressors before! This is a dry recording through Reaper. Can this, through mixing (EQ, Compressor) have the same bass and attack many fingerstyle players, like my favorites Eiro Nareth , have?

Royals
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Cn...QPz48XiIftyDcb

I think it's not really bad, seem pretty happy about the quality and definitely better than having to record with my cell phone anymore! I have some D2 notes, kicks and snares there but you can tell they don't even sound bassy or full and bright. Should the dry recording differ in the first place or can magic happen through mixing?
Very good playing, and the recording seems quite nice for your initial work. Where was your mic positioned (how far from the guitar and where was it pointing to)?

I don't have a great recording space; either a room with quite a few gobos to make the recording as dead as possible, else in my living room with no treatment and more ambient ‘home noise’. I usually record dry, unless there's quite a lot of ambient noise; in that case I go from my preamp out to an analog high pass filter set to 50-60Hz then to the a/d converter.
__________________
Chuck

2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi
2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz
2015 Posch 13-fret 00 in Indian Rosewood and Adi

Last edited by ChuckS; 03-29-2020 at 03:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-29-2020, 03:53 PM
Darknodar123 Darknodar123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 3
Default

Wow, didn't know this was such a responsive forum! Again, so nice being here!

Here is my attempt to mix the track! With this order, Noise Reduction, Hard Clipped the high volume peaks (meaning the kick and snare parts),
Normalized, EQed mostly the low frequency parts and Compressed using Reaper (great DAW indeed) !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTebTU_9fcY

This was 2 days ago, I think I'm getting the hang of it! Here is a little piece I made today, this time recorded with Compression
beforehand as I've seen it's easier having a balanced recording in the first place, at least for me!

Andromeda Unprocessed
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1o9...fxhu5088GbjKou

Andromeda Processed (Did everything above apart from compression since I did it before recording)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1s1...aXlwyxTAvXnxXe
(EDIT: Now that I see it, I overclipped at 0:26 and you can hear some unwanted noise there)


Take a look and share your thoughts! I did not touch the high frequencies when EQing, only the lows. I don't really know what's going on in the higher ones!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk_Z View Post
Hi there,

there is only so much you can fix with mixing. It is better to get as close as possible to the sound you want in the recording stage.

My fast mix :-)
http://www.polyphon-recording.de/royals2.wav

Great playing by the way
Dirk
Thanks for taking your time to mix the track! ^_^ Well, that is an option and personal taste but what I would like is a little different!
Your mixing had a tone-shaping approach, I'm guessing you might have used some sort of amplification or high fx stuff.
What I would like is keeping the same quality with no change, play around with the EQs to give a nice touch to the bass notes,
kicks and snares which are the backbone of fingerstyle, and add some reverb at the end! Here is a final mix in my taste by Eiro
Nareth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-PIsPtJuA

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith.rogers View Post
Good advice so far. I'd add that I hear more room in that recording that is helpful, though if you add enough verb/delay in the mix it will mask some of it. So, I would do some more treatment in that room, or closer micing, probably with more than one mic (which would mean a new interface).

Microphones do not hear the way people do. As suggested, you should experiment a *lot* with microphone placement, as well as possibly temper your style to suit what you hear in the recording, e.g., the physical percussive parts are a bit loud to my ear.
Yeah, room acoustics matter so much and the room I'm recording has no such standards! I will take my time to adjust it the following time!

The percussive stuff is always louder when recording, even compression can't take it off because it's such a sudden volume output peak!
When mixing, I clip them all the way down so they're more smooth along with the track! There's definitely a lot of experimentation with
mic placement, even a slight change is obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Some good advice so far
My thoughts:
Software: . No need to consider any additional mixing editing software other than Reaper it already has far more DAW capability than you will ever fully utilize.

Dry record : Yes and no.

Ideally you can get the recording you want through, playing technique, room treatment, mic placement, mic and preamp choice, (in that progressive order) and not have use and mixing processing in mixing .

But with the caveat that percussive style (I am assuming what you mean by "attack") you want to be aware that as you move the mic's closer and get more overall presence you increase the risk of those percussive transients creating (digital overs)
Which is why some professional recording engineers will sometimes opt for compression during recording for percussive guitar style. Just something to think about.

As noted there is a fair amount of room and self noise so seriously consider room treatment

Mixing:
Yes you can definitely enhance the dry recording with EQ and Comp FX when mixing.
To maintain and enhance the bass with EQ start with a High Pass filter and cut the low end 60 to 100 hz and below. And perhaps also a narrow Q,, 4 or 5 db cut, somewhere between 450 and 600 Hz

Experiment with a compressor set with a slow attack and medium or fast release and a touch of makeup gain (couple of db) Be aware this may also bring up the room/self noise so a noise gate or even third party noise suppression software like Izotope RX might be considered .
Also a touch of parallel reverb may get closer to the sound you are seeking Also consider an EQ before the parallel reverb, set with a high and low pass filters,,, the high set at 600Hz and the low at 8 kHz to 10kHz
Thank you, will see this post next time I'm recording or mixing! As I mentioned above, I do use compression now when recording, mostly because
it sounds so much better hearing it after recording! It may or may not be the same thing, doing fx stuff in recording or mixing process but psychological
aspects or placebo effects have their place too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Very good playing, and the recording seems quite nice for your initial work. Where was your mic positioned (how far from the guitar and where was it pointing to)?
Well, I've seen many pieces of advice regarding this and all of them is the same! Point the mic to the place where fretboard and body meets (around 15th fret) and not at the sound hole!
What did work for me as far as distance is concerned, was having the mic 20-25cms further from the guitar! Experimented a lot with it and that's definitely where it sounds brighter!
I think everyone should experiment, things like mic, room, guitar do play a role in that and certain placements might not work so well for some people.






A final note, if anyone is looking for a cheap mic, the AKG P120 is hands on a great purchase for recording guitar! Eiro Nareth (he has the most awesome tone I've seen for acoustics)
uses two of those to record and I was astounded to see he has the best tone with a 100$ mic! But it's true, I may not know how to use it well, the result though is admirable, even with poor recording/mixing skills and a 300$ guitar.

Last edited by Darknodar123; 03-29-2020 at 05:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:08 PM
anton anton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 620
Default

I don't really play percussively, so that probably introduces other factors I am not aware of, but i have gotten a ton out of copying Doug Young's basic mixing method. I thought your youtube video sounded good, nice snappy sound.

He goes over it here towards the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQdCsEMPYw

And also this one on a basic home recording setup and mixing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b6E20BwSdU

I just copied his method and have had good results. Some basic EQ for a low cut and maybe boost the highs a bit, add a touch of reverb, use Izotope Maximizer to boost the levels, and that TC Electronics meter he shows in the video to get the output to about -15db.

I am not sure what plugins Reaper comes with but you could probably accomplish something similar.

I know its youtube but this would give you an idea of the sound i am getting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8oqpGnCj4M
__________________
Website - Celtic Fingerstyle Guitar
Youtube
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-05-2020, 10:15 AM
Darknodar123 Darknodar123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Some good advice so far

As noted there is a fair amount of room and self noise so seriously consider room treatment

Mixing:
Yes you can definitely enhance the dry recording with EQ and Comp FX when mixing.
To maintain and enhance the bass with EQ start with a High Pass filter and cut the low end 60 to 100 hz and below. And perhaps also a narrow Q,, 4 or 5 db cut, somewhere between 450 and 600 Hz
Quote:
Originally Posted by anton View Post


I just copied his method and have had good results. Some basic EQ for a low cut and maybe boost the highs a bit

Well, I see everywhere that I should use a High Pass filter and cut the low frequencies, but until now I did the exact opposite!
I think the low frequencies need a boost so I increased them through EQ. Must be wrong since I see everywhere about High Pass Filter,
but how can I get these really bassy notes and vibes? If I use a High Pass Filter, I will lose them even more!

See an example I uploaded on Youtube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4MytuCy38w

The two right tracks are by famous youtubers and the left one is mine! As you can see they have high levels of low frequencies (less than 100 Hz)
whereas mine has lower. That's why I didn't use high pass filter to make these frequencies even lower. I increased the lower frequencies, wrong?
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=